T Nation

Sprint or Squat first??


#1

Im a hockey player and i was wondering what would be the best order to do my leg routine. I dont know if i should do my plyometric/sprint work first and then do leg weights, or vice versa? thanks for the help.


#2

Check out Elite Fitness this month's articles there is an excellent write-up by Carl Valle that addresses your question.


#3

Definitely sprint first.

Always do fast work first.


#4

ive done it both ways. for me it depends on what intensities im going to work my sprint at. if its high intensities then ill do them first (actuallly ill do them as a seperate workout) but if im just gonna run anything under 90% ill do it after wards and use it as some extra volume and hamstring work.

train hard,
ryan b.


#5

I would switch up the order. Some days sprint first, some days squat first. RLTW

rangertab75


#6

Hitman,
Could you tell us your specific goals and what phase of your training that you're in? That way we could give more specific responses to your question instead of random ideas.

Anyway, you could do this either way depending on the above questions. Just realize that there will be consequences to each decision. For example...

  1. Hypertrophy Weights then Speed. This is a bad combo because the hypertrophy will drain your glycogen and tax the central nervous system so much that almost no positive training response will occur from the sprint training. You'll only tear yourself down more and not get faster.

  2. Max Str Weights then Speed. This is viable as long as you monitor the volume of the weights so as not to tax your central nervous system too heavily. But if you use the weights to "stimulate" the body(ie. heavy or fast weight movements and low volume), then it's still possible to have a great sprint workout.

  3. Speed then Weights. This is of course a good idea, but the same principles apply. If the speed volume is too high then you won't have anything left for weights.

In my opinion, these are the main guidelines to follow when creating your training plan. The specifics will come with practice, let us know how it goes, good luck.


#7

RFD is the first quality to go.....ive found max strength sticks around long after RFD dissapates.....so sprinting first would be the way to go if your going to sprint as it draws the most from the CNS pool and is highly dependant on RFD


#8

What kind of weight training are we talking here? Here's something to consider: keep neural-rate dominant training separate from neural-magnitude dominant training. This, I have found, is your best bet.


#9

I prefer a 4 days a week lifting and 2-3 days conditioning.
Monday = weights + upper body GPP
Tuesday = plyometric + weights+ lower body GPP
Wednesday = conditioning
Thursday = plyometric + weights+ upper body GPP
Friday = conditioning
Saturda y= plyometric + weights + lower body GPP
Sunday = conditioning
With my athletes we utilize CT?s upper body GPP exercises that he wrote about in his shoulder glider 2000 article, for the lower and upper body GPP drills we utilize an undulating peridization scheme. We also do plyometric's before we train with weights. Now on to energy system work I prefer 400m intervals for hockey players because it trains the energy system directly used. All through that does not mean I only use the 400m interval scheme; I do use others depending on the player and position. Read CT?s RUNNING MAN AND SHOULDER GLIDER 2000 ARTICLE'S, ALSO READ HIS KINETIC ACCUMULATION TRAINING ARTICLE over on elitefitnesssystems. If you have any questions fire away!


#10

Thanks for all your feedback. For my stats i am 6'1 and 225 pounds, body fat i would imagine around 13-15% or so but im not positive about that. Right now im in phase 2 of my summer training. Im following John Berardi's hockey program fairly closely, phase 3 will be hard to follow, even though i am canadian it is hard to get ice in the summer. Im doing maximum strength now, but im doing a lot of short plyometrics (15 second duration, 45 seconds rest)and short sprints before the workout. My main goal is to get faster, specifically quicker. I work legs twice a week. A typical leg workout for me now would be to do the plyos and sprints first, then probably around 6 sets (2 warmup, 4 working) of 3 reps power cleans and squats/split squats (alternate from workout to workout), then some glute-ham raises. My nutrition/supps is very good. I take animal pak multi before workout, dextrose/bcaa shake half way through until end of workout, protein shake 20 mins after, then a protein/carb meal an hour later.

I know my training probably isnt the best it could be. I am thinking of maybe buying coach davis' program. Any more feedback would be great. I will post my pics in couple days.


#11

BOSS,
Could you post what a specific week would look like (exercises, reps, sets) for your microcylce plan?


#12

Boss14 my programs are pretty long so ill give you an abbreviated program in other words I?ll cut out the minor details. For weight training I have begun to use CT?s Pendulum training with great success, especially for relative beginners and intermediates. I also use a modified Westside program with some of my athletes and fore football I tend to favor the tier system (I did an internship under Joe Kenn). The program down below is in pendulum format (functional week):
Day #1
Monday:
1. Genreal Worm-up: Joint mobility drills, jump rope 3 minutes, dynamic stretching.
2. Specific worm-up:
A1. Swing= 3x10
A2. Push press= 3x10
A3. Squat thrust= 3x10
3. Weight training:
A. Floor press= 6x2
B. Bent over BB Rows= 6x2
C. Stiff legged Deadlifts= 6x2
D. Shrugs= 10x5 (auto regulating exercise)
Abs training
E. Thin tummy?s/ lying= 30 seconds x4
F. Bent press= 8x5
G. Abs-glute isometric contraction= 5 second x5
4. Upper body GPP:
A. Backward grabs= 30secods x7
5. Static and Isometric stretching (immediately after): 10-15 minutes.
6. Temperature regulation: Contrast Showers
A. cold/hot shower in 5 minute bursts
This is an example of what my collegiate rugby athletes are following at this time.
This format is very effective in increasing the athlete?s abilities.
IF YOU STILL WANT ME TO WRITE UP A WHOLE WEEK THEN I WILL.


#13

AH WHAT THE HEEL HER IS THE REST OF THE WEEK.
Day 2
Tuesday:
1. General Worm-up: Joint mobility drills, jump rope 3 minutes, dynamic stretching.
2. Plyometrics
A. Ankle jumps= 30x4
B. Altitude landings (4 week block) 2x20
3. Specific worm-up:
A1. Swing= 3x10
A2. Push press= 3x10
A3. Squat thrust= 3x10
4. Weight training:
A. Back squat= 3x3
B. Front squat= 3x3
C. Leg press= 6x3
D. Step ups (auto regulating exercise) 8x4
5. ABS:
A. Cable crunches= 6x10
B. Wood chopper/ low= 6x10
6. Lower body GPP:
A. Sled puling/ dragging (read Dave Tate?s article for a description and/or buy Joe Kenn?s awesome sled dragging video)
B. Burpes= 30x5
7. Static and Isometric stretching (immediately after): 10-15 minutes.
8. Temperature regulation: Contrast Showers
A. cold/hot shower in 5 minute burst

Day 3
Wednesday
Conditioning day
1. Worm up= 1-4 laps + dynamic stretching
A. 400m runs X 5
B1. High knees= 50mX2
B2. C skips= 50mX2
B3. Butt kicks= 50mX2
2. ABS
A. crunches= 2X20 (feeder exercise)
3. Cool down= 1-4 laps
4. Static stretching

Day 4
Thursday
1. General Worm-up: Joint mobility drills, jump rope 3 minutes, dynamic stretching.
2. Plyometrics
A. Ankle jumps= 30x4
B. Altitude landings (4 week block) 2x20
3. Specific worm-up:
A1. Swing= 3x10
A2. Push press= 3x10
A3. Squat thrust= 3x10
4. Weights training:
A. Bench press= 6x3
B. Seated cable rows= 6x3
C. Reverse hyper= 6x5
D. High bar Shrugs= 10x5 (auto regulating exercise)
ABS training
E. Crunches w/ plate= 6x10
F. Wood chopper / high= 6x10
5. Upper body GPP:
A. Backward grabs= 35secods x7
6. Static and Isometric stretching (immediately after): 10-15 minutes.
7. Temperature regulation: Contrast Showers
A. cold/hot shower in 5 minute burst

Day 5
Friday
Conditioning day
1. Worm up= 1-4 laps + dynamic stretching
A. 400m runs X 6
B1. High knees= 50mX3
B2. C skips= 50mX3
B3. Butt kicks= 50mX3
2. ABS
A. crunches= 2X25 (feeder exercise)
3. Cool down= 1-4 laps
4. Static stretching

Day 6
Saturday
1. General Worm-up: Joint mobility drills, jump rope 3 minutes, dynamic stretching.
2. Plyometrics
A. Ankle jumps= 35x4
B. Altitude landings (4 week block) 2x20
3. Specific worm-up:
A1. Swing= 3x10
A2. Push press= 3x10
A3. Squat thrust= 3x10
4. Weight training:
A. Good mornings= 6x3
B. Deadlifts= 6x3
C. Glute ham rises= 2x max reps
D. Step ups (auto regulating exercise) 8x4
5. ABS:
A. Thin tummy?s= 5x25seconds
B. Saxon side bends= 8x5
C. Abs-glute isometric contraction= 5x5 second
6. Lower body GPP:
A. Sled puling/ dragging (read Dave Tate?s article for a description and/or buy Joe Kenn?s awesome sled dragging video)
B. Burpes= 30x3
C. mountain climbers= 30x3
7. Static and Isometric stretching (immediately after): 10-15 minutes.
8. Temperature regulation: Contrast Showers
A. cold/hot shower in 5 minute burst

Day 7 (optional day, depending on recover ability)
Sunday
Conditioning day
1. Worm up= 1-4 laps + dynamic stretching
A. 400m runs X 6
B1. High knees= 55mX3
B2. C skips= 55mX3
B3. Butt kicks= 55mX3
2. ABS
A. crunches= 2X30 (feeder exercise)
3. Cool down= 1-4 laps
4. Static stretching

THAT?S ALL FOLKS!


#14

Good Stuff Boss, thanks for taking the time....Do you use the pendulum approach all year long? How do you use auto regulating with step ups and the other exercises you have it listed for? Got any good resources for joint mobility drills??


#15

BOSS14 to answer your first question it depends on the sport, player body type, recover ability, muscle fiber type, training experience, ext., ext. In general I?m finding the Pendulum system to be perfect for creating a strength and hypertrophy base in beginners and intermediates trainees. For a newbee Id use the Pendulum approach maybe 1 full year switching between functional and structural training. Also With most of my athletes I try to have them overtrain to a 3 to 7 percent deficit. Now on to your next question about auto regulating your training read CT?s BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN article for more info then go to elite fitness systems and purchase all the Russian training manuals then start reading. To answer your third question a great book on joint mobility drills is Pavel Tsatsouline book SUPER JOINTS and Coach Davies book RENEGADE TRAINIG FOR FOOTBAL has a unique hip mobility drill.
Good luck.


#16

btw, re hurdle mobility drills please visit my site and look under "renegade 101" - you'll find a lot of help there.

To start, I would suggest the following:

Tumbling (perform 3-5 sets of 3-5 repeats daily)
1. Forward somersault
2. Backward somersault
3. Tripod to rollout

Hurdle Mobility Drills: hurdles at hip height, (3-5 sets of 5 hurdles)
1. Side movement, with lead leg over

  1. Side movement, crossover lead leg
  2. Side movement, alternate
  3. Front movement, knee over
  4. Front movement, straight-down center
  5. Duck under, stay low throughout
  6. Duck under, pop up high in between
  7. Duck under, twist and stay low throughout
  8. Duck under, twists and pop pp between
  9. Duck under, forward zig-zag pattern

A suggested daily work pattern for hurdle work is as such:

Mon:movements 4 and 5
Tue:movements 1 and 2
Wed:movements 5 and 6
Thu:movements 7 and 8
Fri:movements 9 and 10

In faith,

Coach Davies


#17

BOSS, what time of the year do you have your athletes overtrain....and im assuming when you say a 3-7% deficit you are using DB Hammer's techniques?


#18

Coach Davies I think your hip mobility drills are awesome, I use the hip mobility drills from your book with most of my field athletes and even with some of my fighters. Thanks!


#19

To answer to your first question it depends on a number of variables. But in general I use between 6-20 week blocks, each block is one week I may use 1 week block with relative beginners or with some high level athletes I may utilize 10 blocks which is 10 weeks of overtraining. Be carefully how you structure these blocks because excessively overtraining will halt your progress. My methods are very similar to how the Russians did/do it. Although I like DB Hammer's techniques my techniques are a little different.


#20

To answer to your first question it depends on a number of variables. But in general I use between 6-20 week blocks, each block is one week I may use 1 week block with relative beginners or with some high level athletes I may utilize 10 blocks which is 10 weeks of overtraining. Be carefully how you structure these blocks because excessively overtraining will halt your progress. My methods are very similar to how the Russians did/do it. Although I like DB Hammer's techniques my techniques are a little different.