T Nation

Spending Shift: F-22 On Chopping Board

[i]So here’s why Defense Secretary Robert Gates kept discussions on the Pentagon’s 2010 budget so secret that he swore the military’s high command to silence ahead of its unveiling. Aiming to shift military spending priorities from billion-dollar Cold War weapons to the simpler armored vehicles and spy drones needed for the “wars we are in today and scenarios for the years ahead,” Gates on Monday proposed, among other things, to end funding of the advanced F-22 Raptor fighter.

That cut alone will spark fierce resistance on Capitol Hill, but it’s only one aspect of what Gates called his “unorthodox approach” that will align military spending with today’s military realities. The $534 billion budget announced by Gates on Monday amounts to a dramatic first salvo in a new war pitting the Obama Administration against the entrenched interests in the services, the defense industry, and among those on Capitol Hill whose districts benefit from investment in big-ticket weapons systems.[/i]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1889673,00.html

Can we get a refund for the countless billions they have already wasted on it?

What about the reality of communist China developing a 4th gen fighter the Jian J10 and producing Sukhoi SU27’s that are of a higher quality than the Russian versions?

Most of the unit costs that have been quoted for the F22 are the developmental costs that have already been spent. The savings we will get from shutting down the production line will be minimal.

Meanwhile the demands of war fighting have been accelerating the wearing out of the F15, F16 and F18 fleets. All those airplanes are getting to be old. The F15 is a 1960’s design first flew in 1972.

The F16 program started in the 1960’s, the first one flew in 1974. The F16 won the light weight fighter program 1974 by beating the F17, which began development in 1965 and first flew in 1974.

The F17 was further developed and put into production for the navy as the F18. Which first flew in 1978.

If America wants to maintain the technological edge so that the Chinese and Russians are not encouraged to try and compete with us, we need to produce new state of the art fighters.

The Jian J10 is a knockoff of the F16 but is a newly built airplane. It is not old and worn out like Americas F16 fleet.

The SU27 can do things aerodynamically that the F15 just isn’t capable of like the Pugachev’s Cobra.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
What about the reality of communist China developing a 4th gen fighter the Jian J10 and producing Sukhoi SU27’s that are of a higher quality than the Russian versions?

Most of the unit costs that have been quoted for the F22 are the developmental costs that have already been spent. The savings we will get from shutting down the production line will be minimal.

Meanwhile the demands of war fighting have been accelerating the wearing out of the F15, F16 and F18 fleets. All those airplanes are getting to be old. The F15 is a 1960’s design first flew in 1972.

The F16 program started in the 1960’s, the first one flew in 1974. The F16 won the light weight fighter program 1974 by beating the F17, which began development in 1965 and first flew in 1974.

The F17 was further developed and put into production for the navy as the F18. Which first flew in 1978.

If America wants to maintain the technological edge so that the Chinese and Russians are not encouraged to try and compete with us, we need to produce new state of the art fighters.

The Jian J10 is a knockoff of the F16 but is a newly built airplane. It is not old and worn out like Americas F16 fleet.

The SU27 can do things aerodynamically that the F15 just isn’t capable of like the Pugachev’s Cobra.


[/quote]

Agreed. But that said, what I read of the budget reshaping I mostly approve of. In fact, the only thing that I’ve read that I disagree with at the moment is the cutting of the Future Combat Systems program. The reason I disagree with this is that while our current theaters of conflict are counterinsurgency based, I believe that it is in fact very possible (though NOT imminent or in immediate threat) that we will come to blows with a well armed nation-state. When we do that, I would like the command and control that the FCS could give us.

I agree with Gates that we need to rethink how the budget is allocated though.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Sifu wrote:
What about the reality of communist China developing a 4th gen fighter the Jian J10 and producing Sukhoi SU27’s that are of a higher quality than the Russian versions?

Most of the unit costs that have been quoted for the F22 are the developmental costs that have already been spent. The savings we will get from shutting down the production line will be minimal.

Meanwhile the demands of war fighting have been accelerating the wearing out of the F15, F16 and F18 fleets. All those airplanes are getting to be old. The F15 is a 1960’s design first flew in 1972.

The F16 program started in the 1960’s, the first one flew in 1974. The F16 won the light weight fighter program 1974 by beating the F17, which began development in 1965 and first flew in 1974.

The F17 was further developed and put into production for the navy as the F18. Which first flew in 1978.

If America wants to maintain the technological edge so that the Chinese and Russians are not encouraged to try and compete with us, we need to produce new state of the art fighters.

The Jian J10 is a knockoff of the F16 but is a newly built airplane. It is not old and worn out like Americas F16 fleet.

The SU27 can do things aerodynamically that the F15 just isn’t capable of like the Pugachev’s Cobra.

Agreed. But that said, what I read of the budget reshaping I mostly approve of. In fact, the only thing that I’ve read that I disagree with at the moment is the cutting of the Future Combat Systems program. The reason I disagree with this is that while our current theaters of conflict are counterinsurgency based, I believe that it is in fact very possible (though NOT imminent or in immediate threat) that we will come to blows with a well armed nation-state. When we do that, I would like the command and control that the FCS could give us.

I agree with Gates that we need to rethink how the budget is allocated though.[/quote]

FCS is an even bigger waste of money than the F-22. “Future Contracts System”, as others have noted, is a more accurate name. We can handle any foreseeable “peer competitor” with legacy forces (i.e. Abrams, Bradley, airpower, etc.).

Do you think the Lockheed puppets in Congress will let this pass?

I smell fierce opposition coming his way.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Do you think the Lockheed puppets in Congress will let this pass?

I smell fierce opposition coming his way.[/quote]

Since they are proposing to make up for canceling the F-22 by buying more of the F-35 (which is also made by Lockheed) Lockheed is going to make money either way.

Common sense says don’t put all your eggs in one basket. By relying solely on the F-35 any problem that grounds the F-35 fleet will leave America without a fighter. So there definitely is going to be a fight.

We could even see a Jimmy Carter cancels the B1 bomber replay, where the F-22 gets canceled then the next president reinstates it at a marked up price.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
Do you think the Lockheed puppets in Congress will let this pass?

I smell fierce opposition coming his way.

Since they are proposing to make up for canceling the F-22 by buying more of the F-35 (which is also made by Lockheed) Lockheed is going to make money either way.

Common sense says don’t put all your eggs in one basket. By relying solely on the F-35 any problem that grounds the F-35 fleet will leave America without a fighter. So there definitely is going to be a fight.

We could even see a Jimmy Carter cancels the B1 bomber replay, where the F-22 gets canceled then the next president reinstates it at a marked up price. [/quote]

Maybe, but doubtful. We have 183 of them already ordered. That is quite a bit, unless they are talking about canceling all the already ordered ones.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
Do you think the Lockheed puppets in Congress will let this pass?

I smell fierce opposition coming his way.

Since they are proposing to make up for canceling the F-22 by buying more of the F-35 (which is also made by Lockheed) Lockheed is going to make money either way.

Common sense says don’t put all your eggs in one basket. By relying solely on the F-35 any problem that grounds the F-35 fleet will leave America without a fighter. So there definitely is going to be a fight.

We could even see a Jimmy Carter cancels the B1 bomber replay, where the F-22 gets canceled then the next president reinstates it at a marked up price.

Maybe, but doubtful. We have 183 of them already ordered. That is quite a bit, unless they are talking about canceling all the already ordered ones. [/quote]

The impression I got from the news is they are going to shut down the assembly line and take the loss.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
Do you think the Lockheed puppets in Congress will let this pass?

I smell fierce opposition coming his way.

Since they are proposing to make up for canceling the F-22 by buying more of the F-35 (which is also made by Lockheed) Lockheed is going to make money either way.

Common sense says don’t put all your eggs in one basket. By relying solely on the F-35 any problem that grounds the F-35 fleet will leave America without a fighter. So there definitely is going to be a fight.

We could even see a Jimmy Carter cancels the B1 bomber replay, where the F-22 gets canceled then the next president reinstates it at a marked up price.

Maybe, but doubtful. We have 183 of them already ordered. That is quite a bit, unless they are talking about canceling all the already ordered ones.

The impression I got from the news is they are going to shut down the assembly line and take the loss. [/quote]

Don’t forget about the F-22J. Japan has been chomping at the bit to buy the F-22

[quote]borrek wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
Do you think the Lockheed puppets in Congress will let this pass?

I smell fierce opposition coming his way.

Since they are proposing to make up for canceling the F-22 by buying more of the F-35 (which is also made by Lockheed) Lockheed is going to make money either way.

Common sense says don’t put all your eggs in one basket. By relying solely on the F-35 any problem that grounds the F-35 fleet will leave America without a fighter. So there definitely is going to be a fight.

We could even see a Jimmy Carter cancels the B1 bomber replay, where the F-22 gets canceled then the next president reinstates it at a marked up price.

Maybe, but doubtful. We have 183 of them already ordered. That is quite a bit, unless they are talking about canceling all the already ordered ones.

The impression I got from the news is they are going to shut down the assembly line and take the loss.

Don’t forget about the F-22J. Japan has been chomping at the bit to buy the F-22
[/quote]

We (the US) produce somthing that people in other countries want to buy? Thats, amazing.
Anyway I wouldnt worry about the F-22 getting scapped. Barry ended the war on terror everything is going to be fine now. Oh yeah, pay no attention to that missle North Korea launched.

[quote]jawara wrote:
borrek wrote:

Don’t forget about the F-22J. Japan has been chomping at the bit to buy the F-22

We (the US) produce somthing that people in other countries want to buy? Thats, amazing.
Anyway I wouldnt worry about the F-22 getting scapped. Barry ended the war on terror everything is going to be fine now. Oh yeah, pay no attention to that missle North Korea launched.[/quote]

Japan paid attention, that’s why they want more F-22s!

You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s!

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s![/quote]

Dude, even the Wright Brothers and Thomas Edison had flops. Eventually they’ll make a missle that works. You also failed to mention the fact that the Chinese are building up their military and guess what… They really don’t care for Americans that much.

[quote]jawara wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s!

Dude, even the Wright Brothers and Thomas Edison had flops. Eventually they’ll make a missle that works. You also failed to mention the fact that the Chinese are building up their military and guess what… They really don’t care for Americans that much.[/quote]

Maybe not, but they REALLY dont care for Japan :stuck_out_tongue:

Add to that Russia has alot of natural resources that China will need sooner than later, Amercica is an ocean away wouldn’t worry to much.

[quote]300andabove wrote:
jawara wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s!

Dude, even the Wright Brothers and Thomas Edison had flops. Eventually they’ll make a missle that works. You also failed to mention the fact that the Chinese are building up their military and guess what… They really don’t care for Americans that much.

Maybe not, but they REALLY dont care for Japan :stuck_out_tongue:

Add to that Russia has alot of natural resources that China will need sooner than later, Amercica is an ocean away wouldn’t worry to much.[/quote]

Well the fact that the Chinese submarine fleet is rapidly growing worries me http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSHB&q=china+submarine

The fact that they have missle that can destroy an aircraft carrier with one hit, worries me http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/04/us-cant-stop-ch.html

I know some of yall think I’m parnaoid but this shit aint no joke.

[quote]jawara wrote:
300andabove wrote:
jawara wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s!

Dude, even the Wright Brothers and Thomas Edison had flops. Eventually they’ll make a missle that works. You also failed to mention the fact that the Chinese are building up their military and guess what… They really don’t care for Americans that much.

Maybe not, but they REALLY dont care for Japan :stuck_out_tongue:

Add to that Russia has alot of natural resources that China will need sooner than later, Amercica is an ocean away wouldn’t worry to much.

Well the fact that the Chinese submarine fleet is rapidly growing worries me http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSHB&q=china+submarine

The fact that they have missle that can destroy an aircraft carrier with one hit, worries me http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/04/us-cant-stop-ch.html

I know some of yall think I’m parnaoid but this shit aint no joke.[/quote]

You realize a war between China and the U.S. would be a disaster for both countries, right?

[quote]jawara wrote:
300andabove wrote:
jawara wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s!

Dude, even the Wright Brothers and Thomas Edison had flops. Eventually they’ll make a missle that works. You also failed to mention the fact that the Chinese are building up their military and guess what… They really don’t care for Americans that much.

Maybe not, but they REALLY dont care for Japan :stuck_out_tongue:

Add to that Russia has alot of natural resources that China will need sooner than later, Amercica is an ocean away wouldn’t worry to much.

Well the fact that the Chinese submarine fleet is rapidly growing worries me http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSHB&q=china+submarine

The fact that they have missle that can destroy an aircraft carrier with one hit, worries me http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/04/us-cant-stop-ch.html

I know some of yall think I’m parnaoid but this shit aint no joke.[/quote]

Hah!

Now consider that the USA has a lot more firepower, that it outspends China in military expenditure by an order of magnitude and that it is actually going around the globe bombing and invading other countries.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s![/quote]

It sure went a hell of a lot farther than the last one, which blew up 40 seconds into its flight. This one flew about 3,000 km. Quite an improvement.

Don’t worry, I’m sure the N. Koreans won’t sell the Taepodong-2 to any Pakistani Islamists once they get it working like they did their nuclear technology through the Khan network. I doubt they’ll advise the Iranians either - it wouldn’t be very nice and Obama would definitely write them a strongly worded letter condemning such a thing, were it to happen.

[quote]jawara wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You mean the missle that fell into the ocean? You’re right! We need more F-22s!

Dude, even the Wright Brothers and Thomas Edison had flops. Eventually they’ll make a missle that works. You also failed to mention the fact that the Chinese are building up their military and guess what… They really don’t care for Americans that much.[/quote]

They would never ever get their money back if they attacked us. Try again.