[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hahah I saw all this stuff on facebook.
I never got anything from speed work, personally. Speed work being at that standard 40% 1RM mark… but then again, I’m not sure how this applies to lifters using bench shirts, squat suits, etc.[/quote]
40% is super low.
My speed work for the past 12 weeks has revolved around 55-60 for bench 60-65 for squat. We started with just chains then we progressed into bands then into finally bands AND chains.
If you don’t push with all you have and as fast as you can from the start, well, expect to get flattened. currently speedwork is working for me however I need more plyometric type work to get explosive, i’m still pretty much a grinder.
Speed work is a tool. If you’re not trying/able to accelerate the bar maximally on your heavier sets, you practice with lighter weight. Use it if you’re lacking. Not rocket science.
I found speed work yo be helpful as a raw lifter if use higher percentages for your working weight as well as using higher rep ranges, 70 - 75% for 5 Reps, maybe this bastardizes the essence of speed work, but IMO unless you are moving some real significant weight the percentages are just too low.
Mark Bell mentioned this in one of his youtube videos a while back
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I found speed work yo be helpful as a raw lifter if use higher percentages for your working weight as well as using higher rep ranges, 70 - 75% for 5 Reps, maybe this bastardizes the essence of speed work, but IMO unless you are moving some real significant weight the percentages are just too low.
Mark Bell mentioned this in one of his youtube videos a while back[/quote]
70-75% weights are not what most would consider speed work. Funny though – between 70-80% for reps was the magic range for me on my bench.
Correct me if wrong but isn’t the debate about whether speed work is effective or not for Raw lifters? I read an article on it on my phone during class so I wasn’t that thorough.
Depends on strengths/weaknesses and experience of the lifter.
In the pre-season stage, EVERY day should be a speed day! Name ONE PERSON who can actually lift 85-90 percent in a slow, deliberate way. Can’t be done. It’s all-out or you fail. OTOH, because of the TUT principle, you have to do as many sets/reps as necessary to get the requisite time to force adaptation.
Research shows that it takes around three quarters of a second for average lifters to reach their peak strength output. Gifted lifters can get max recruitment in around a half second. It’s important to know this. The entire rationale for the existence of dumbbells and barbells is to force you to slow your movements down to these levels. Anyone can lift zero in a tenth of a second. Try doing that with over 55 percent of your max. As the weight gets heavier, it takes longer to lift it. Powerlifting requires a steadfast application of limit strength over as much as 3/4 of a second. Those who take longer than that to make a lift rarely win.
Your training had better reflect this need for speed! If it takes longer than 3/4 second, you’re training too heavy OR you’re training speed is designed to impress your friends in the gym OR you ain’t suited for the sport of Powerlifting.
Additionally, research by Johnny Claxton of Austrilia examined the differences between the traditional bench press, plometric-ballistic (Explosive-Reactive-Ballistic/Supetraining & Special Strength), and attaching bands to the bar. Each of these methods created a different training effect…not better or worse, just different.
Fred Hatfield also provided information on plyometric-ballistic training in “Power: A Scienfitic Approach.”
To maximize strength gains, plyometric-ballistic exercises/movements should be employed in everyone’s program at some point.
When regularly doing speed bench (w/ bands) and deadlift (staight weight) i notice a pretty noticeable increase in speed off the chest/floor. DE work is very good if you are don’t know how to “explode”/start fast and/or if your form is not very good.
It should also be noted that, for “westside” guys, DE days are some of the only times the actual lift (or close to the actual lift) is practiced. If you spend much of your time doing variations, it’s good to do some work on the actual lift for “greasing the grove” at least.
It seems speed work is most beneficial when other lifts are 90% or higher which is exactly what westside does. If the core of your work is in the 70-90% range (which is kind of like medium speed) then you don’t need to do “speed” work at less than 70% but you also don’t have to do 90%+ either, like sheiko for example. I think on those types of programs you only do more than 90% occasionally to test your maxes.
[quote]T11 wrote:
I won’t confirm or deny speed that speed work does or doesn’t work. I haven’t had enough experience using it.[/quote]
You sure you wanna go out on a limb like that?
[quote]corstijeir wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hahah I saw all this stuff on facebook.
I never got anything from speed work, personally. Speed work being at that standard 40% 1RM mark… but then again, I’m not sure how this applies to lifters using bench shirts, squat suits, etc.[/quote]
40% is super low.
My speed work for the past 12 weeks has revolved around 55-60 for bench 60-65 for squat. We started with just chains then we progressed into bands then into finally bands AND chains.
If you don’t push with all you have and as fast as you can from the start, well, expect to get flattened. currently speedwork is working for me however I need more plyometric type work to get explosive, i’m still pretty much a grinder.[/quote]
Well 40-50% is the recommendation by Westside IIRC, which why I was talking about that specific percentage. I think speed work with percentages higher than that (70-80%) is something much different, which is what I believe the discussion is about… at least the debate I saw on facebook.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]corstijeir wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hahah I saw all this stuff on facebook.
I never got anything from speed work, personally. Speed work being at that standard 40% 1RM mark… but then again, I’m not sure how this applies to lifters using bench shirts, squat suits, etc.[/quote]
40% is super low.
My speed work for the past 12 weeks has revolved around 55-60 for bench 60-65 for squat. We started with just chains then we progressed into bands then into finally bands AND chains.
If you don’t push with all you have and as fast as you can from the start, well, expect to get flattened. currently speedwork is working for me however I need more plyometric type work to get explosive, i’m still pretty much a grinder.[/quote]
Well 40-50% is the recommendation by Westside IIRC, which why I was talking about that specific percentage. I think speed work with percentages higher than that (70-80%) is something much different, which is what I believe the discussion is about… at least the debate I saw on facebook.[/quote]
Not specifically speaking to this thread or the online debate as I’m not a part of that, I think a lot of people know what goes on at westside without ever training at westside.
I also believe that 40-50% translates to a % of your geared weight not your RAW, so 40% of a 900lb squat is 60% of a 600lb squat. 360#.
I think Dave Tate said it best:
I think the key with all methods of strength is to study, understand, apply and then use what works best for you. I have been told there is a big facebook debate going on about “speed” work. Nothing new here. I use it for some lifters I help and not for others. It all depends on the needs of the lifter. The most important thing to me is to understand as many methods as you can so you have more tools in the box to pull from. I’m not and have never been a fan of “a program” regardless of the name. I’m more a fan of helping to educate people people on how to develop and design their own training and understanding why they are doing what they are doing. The answers always falls in the middle. The trick is educating yourself enough to know what that middle is. - Dave Tate
“It all depends on the needs of the lifter.” It’s like arguing for or against 5/3/1 or arguing raw vs geared, different folks, different strokes. Just train your ass off and get stronger.
Just my thoughts on this. ( not specifically directed at anyone anywhere )
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]corstijeir wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hahah I saw all this stuff on facebook.
I never got anything from speed work, personally. Speed work being at that standard 40% 1RM mark… but then again, I’m not sure how this applies to lifters using bench shirts, squat suits, etc.[/quote]
40% is super low.
My speed work for the past 12 weeks has revolved around 55-60 for bench 60-65 for squat. We started with just chains then we progressed into bands then into finally bands AND chains.
If you don’t push with all you have and as fast as you can from the start, well, expect to get flattened. currently speedwork is working for me however I need more plyometric type work to get explosive, i’m still pretty much a grinder.[/quote]
Well 40-50% is the recommendation by Westside IIRC, which why I was talking about that specific percentage. I think speed work with percentages higher than that (70-80%) is something much different, which is what I believe the discussion is about… at least the debate I saw on facebook.[/quote]
40% is what Louie says his guys use. And that’s 40% of their geared best. 40% is a decent amount of weight if you’re a 1200lb squatter or an 800lb bencher. 40% is a joke if you’re a 300lb bencher. Generally speaking, the more advanced you are, the lower the percentage you need to work with. Likewise, if you’re not advanced you can go a little heavier on it.
I think a lot of people find that 50% to 65% works great. But percentages do not matter, it’s the speed that matters. Find the most weight that allows you to do 3 reps in 3 seconds. If 3 reps takes longer than that, take weight off.
[quote]burt128 wrote:
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I found speed work yo be helpful as a raw lifter if use higher percentages for your working weight as well as using higher rep ranges, 70 - 75% for 5 Reps, maybe this bastardizes the essence of speed work, but IMO unless you are moving some real significant weight the percentages are just too low.
Mark Bell mentioned this in one of his youtube videos a while back[/quote]
70-75% weights are not what most would consider speed work. Funny though – between 70-80% for reps was the magic range for me on my bench.
[/quote]
Agreed, then I guess it goes back to the original question, does speed work in its original meaning work for the Raw lifter, I would guess not, not in its original form anyway.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
[quote]burt128 wrote:
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I found speed work yo be helpful as a raw lifter if use higher percentages for your working weight as well as using higher rep ranges, 70 - 75% for 5 Reps, maybe this bastardizes the essence of speed work, but IMO unless you are moving some real significant weight the percentages are just too low.
Mark Bell mentioned this in one of his youtube videos a while back[/quote]
70-75% weights are not what most would consider speed work. Funny though – between 70-80% for reps was the magic range for me on my bench.
[/quote]
Agreed, then I guess it goes back to the original question, does speed work in its original meaning work for the Raw lifter, I would guess not, not in its original form anyway.[/quote]
This
I think it bears repeating that the %s aren’t set in stone and the weights used end up being specific to that lifter. I feel like I get the best speed work done when the weight is about 50-70% at the bottom, but as much as 90% at the top of the movement. Perhaps that isn’t he original west side DE method but its what I’ve found works for me. I’m naturally a very slow lifter and I think I’m improving there pretty well.
[quote]detazathoth wrote:
What I AM saying is that I understand physics behind F=ma. But I’m telling you that in all the data I’ve collected, I don’t see the real life force production in highly submaximal weights. That holds true with the straight-weight work and also when using accommodation. I’m sorry if that upsets some folks, but I’m just reporting the numbers.
[/quote]
I think it is wise to first clarify what speed work “works” actually can/should refer to.
As far as I understand it, speed work “works” if it
(1) makes the CNS more efficient at stimulating high(er) threshold motor units,
(2) it maximize the number of motor units activated, and
(3) improves the discharge frequency of those motor units.
The typical approach to get stronger is to lift heavy weights (80%+ of 1RM). Why? Because the force required to move that amount of weight basically ensures that we max out the used pool of available motor units (2) and probably achieve (1) + (3) on top of that.
I think the only way to measure if speed work actually works in practice is to look at the actual force (resp., acceleration) produced, since the other factors or not observable. So I guess speed work “works” if we can achieve similar levels of force by accelerating the lighter weight appropriately.
I personally haven’t measured things but it seems the OP has collected data and found that the amount of force is not sufficient. Correct?
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]detazathoth wrote:
What I AM saying is that I understand physics behind F=ma. But I’m telling you that in all the data I’ve collected, I don’t see the real life force production in highly submaximal weights. That holds true with the straight-weight work and also when using accommodation. I’m sorry if that upsets some folks, but I’m just reporting the numbers.
[/quote]
I think it is wise to first clarify what speed work “works” actually can/should refer to.
As far as I understand it, speed work “works” if it
(1) makes the CNS more efficient at stimulating high(er) threshold motor units,
(2) it maximize the number of motor units activated, and
(3) improves the discharge frequency of those motor units.
The typical approach to get stronger is to lift heavy weights (80%+ of 1RM). Why? Because the force required to move that amount of weight basically ensures that we max out the used pool of available motor units (2) and probably achieve (1) + (3) on top of that.
I think the only way to measure if speed work actually works in practice is to look at the actual force (resp., acceleration) produced, since the other factors or not observable. So I guess speed work “works” if we can achieve similar levels of force by accelerating the lighter weight appropriately.
I personally haven’t measured things but it seems the OP has collected data and found that the amount of force is not sufficient. Correct? [/quote]
That is what Mike T said in his follow up to the original Speed Work article.
There was a very entertaining thread regarding the matter on Paul Carter’s facebook
It’s worked for me. Not precisely the Westside method but I make it a point that when I’m going through sets to pull, press, or in the case of the squat explode from the bottom with as much velocity as I can muster with proper form.