[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I grew up Pentecostal. Just curious who else did? [/quote]
Baptist
[quote]helga wrote:
carter12 wrote:
Interesting. So you guys are saying that speaking in tongues is voluntary? I assumed that it was just something that happened and not something the people were trying to do.
I mentioned earlier that I have not set foot in a church for a number of years now, and I am in no way claiming to be an expert on this matter in either the theology or the practice of speaking in tongues.
What I have seen in my personal experience is many people ‘speaking in tongues’ (I am using the term very loosely) from a very voluntary decision to portray an image which makes them feel to themselves, or appear to to others, as more religious or holy or whatever it is they are personally seeking.
I can accept that this will be taken as a very braod generalisation, and I sincerely hope that others can prove me wrong and provide some better examples, but this is just to share what I have seen and experienced.[/quote]
From what ive seen on christian television, nowdays speaking in tongues looks as fake as the davici code/ dead sea crolls/ the book of judas…just a bunch of dotrine of demons/ blastphemy (Doesnt the bible cleary state to not add or take away from the Bible, and even goes on to say in revalation that anyone who does so will be punished.). It allmost as bad as that healing of hands you see that guy with the white hair do on Christian satelite (the bible cleary states healing with hands no longer exist in this world, it was stopped by god himself).
[quote]Dragon wrote:
It allmost as bad as that healing of hands you see that guy with the white hair do on Christian satelite (the bible cleary states healing with hands no longer exist in this world, it was stopped by god himself).
[/quote]
You have aroused my curiosity now. Through out my time in church I witnessed and took part regularly in the process of praying for healing by ‘laying on of hands’ and believing that this was encouraged and supported in the Bible.
Obviously I dont want to hijack the thread but I would love to know if this practice is not supported by the Word of God.
[quote]Dragon wrote:
From what ive seen on christian television, nowdays speaking in tongues looks as fake as the davici code/ dead sea crolls/ the book of judas…[/quote]
You’re kidding… right?
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
You have to remember, idiots come in all shapes. Some go to church. Some go to college. Some have MDs. Some get elected to powerful positions in government, etc.[/quote]
Very, very well said Mr. Chen!
[quote]john w wrote:
i’ve yet to see any real proof from the Bible [/quote]
HA! You said “proof from the bible.” That’s some funny shit. Kinda like how the Bible proves that the Bible is the word of God, right?
[quote]Northcott wrote:
Dragon wrote:
From what ive seen on christian television, nowdays speaking in tongues looks as fake as the davici code/ dead sea crolls/ the book of judas…
You’re kidding… right?
[/quote]
Anything that is not said in the bible or is a book in the bible is dotrine of demons & blastphemy. The divinci code is pure blastphamy, the dead sea scrolls is a dotrine of demons, the “judas” papers they just found is a dotrine of demons. Anything that is trying to be added or took away from the bible is false and those that try this God shall add unto him plagues and take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city. Thay will burn in the lake of fire, the last & worst layer of hell. I have no mercy for these authors or peolpe dead. The ones alive I do pray that they change there ways and come forward with there deceptions, but if they dont, may there souls spent eternity in torment unimaginable and not know. Amen.
Dragon
[quote]helga wrote:
Dragon wrote:
It allmost as bad as that healing of hands you see that guy with the white hair do on Christian satelite (the bible cleary states healing with hands no longer exist in this world, it was stopped by god himself).
You have aroused my curiosity now. Through out my time in church I witnessed and took part regularly in the process of praying for healing by ‘laying on of hands’ and believing that this was encouraged and supported in the Bible.
Obviously I dont want to hijack the thread but I would love to know if this practice is not supported by the Word of God.[/quote]
I just sent a email to Billy Graham & jack Van Impe on this subject and what they thought. I should receive confirmation on this in a couple days. I did read this somewhere, but I might have mis-read it/interpitted it. I will let you know as soon as I get a reply. I tryed to find this myself but I cant find it now, hence the email to my fellow christians Billy & Jack.
I once dated a chick who was penticostal(sp?). She invited me to her church so I went, trying to get in her pants…or skirt I should say…anyway, she did the dancing, hand in the air, and spoke in tongue…That was our last date.
I know that doesn’t help the OP but I just had to share.
I am a christian, I have plenty of faith.
But I also beleive that God gave me the ability to see perfectly explainable nonsense and out right scams and hokum.
I liken the people in the fundamintalist type religions going in to hysterics and the like in the same way I view these Evangelists in Armani Suits laying hands on alleged invalids and the like and raiseing them in bravado as they cast their braces and crutches aside.
I also know for a fact that has been more than one case of some of these supposed people cancer patients in general who proclaimed they were healed because they believed in the doctrine and died months later of geuss what Cancer.
I hardly think God changed his mind.
The speaking in togues may be something some people believ and that in and of its self is fine for them at least but being over come by the spirit so to speak is like psychis ability it can be explained away so far there has been no concrete proof, that is not to say it does not happen.
But people are often caught up in group induced pyschosis and the like.
As well as just becoming so emotionally caught up they let loose there inhibitions and subcoming to the idea this by no means is evidence of a higher being or mental illness some people are just more sucseptable than others.
I had an experiance once where I had went to service with my wife and on this particular day the Minister brought in this RN who was giving a talk about the influence of positive affirmation and laughter on affecting healing health etc.
She asked evryone to face their neighbor and in stages begin smiling then giggling then laughing etc. After a few akward monets evryone was hysterical slapping their knees tears rolling laughter filling the church.
I was not laughing but feeling very akward I had attended that day I fealt I was in the midst of insanity! I could not bring myself to participate and didn’t feel bad about that at all but I was utterly shocked at how this contagion of laughter spread and it was really unsettling to me to be honest.
No I am not a stick in the mud but I can’t just laugh without reason either, and I am definately uncomfortable forcing myself to make a spectacle in public.
Speaking in tongues definately happens higher power involved more like the power of suggestion in my opinion.
[quote]Dragon wrote:
Northcott wrote:
Dragon wrote:
From what ive seen on christian television, nowdays speaking in tongues looks as fake as the davici code/ dead sea crolls/ the book of judas…
You’re kidding… right?
Anything that is not said in the bible or is a book in the bible is dotrine of demons & blastphemy. The divinci code is pure blastphamy, the dead sea scrolls is a dotrine of demons, the “judas” papers they just found is a dotrine of demons. Anything that is trying to be added or took away from the bible is false and those that try this God shall add unto him plagues and take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city. Thay will burn in the lake of fire, the last & worst layer of hell. I have no mercy for these authors or peolpe dead. The ones alive I do pray that they change there ways and come forward with there deceptions, but if they dont, may there souls spent eternity in torment unimaginable and not know. Amen.
Dragon[/quote]
You do know the Dead sea scrolls contain the oldest copies of the old testament we have don’t you?
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t know that. unless you are saying the OT is a demonic book.
[quote]carter12 wrote:
Interesting. So you guys are saying that speaking in tongues is voluntary? I assumed that it was just something that happened and not something the people were trying to do.
Also, to the guy who asked why I am wondering about it when it happened around age 12: I’ve always wondered about it since and haven’t really came away with an understanding.
When others have tried to explain it, they would say that it was God speaking through them and the people weren’t doing it on purpose. I assumed it was like being “possessed by an evil spirit”, only the exact opposite.
If there was choice then I can see how it’d be used just for attention.[/quote]
Speaking in tongues is almost never a forced act in the Bible. outside of acts 2 there seems to be no other evidence that it was uncontrollable.
In fact with the guidelines Paul laid out it seems like a very controlled gift.
I will not go so far as to say it isn’t real, but I will say that unless they are following the Biblical guidelines they are just putting on a good show.
You don’t have to speak in tongues to win an acting award in church there are plenty of people that do a good job with out it.
[quote]Dragon wrote:
helga wrote:
Dragon wrote:
It allmost as bad as that healing of hands you see that guy with the white hair do on Christian satelite (the bible cleary states healing with hands no longer exist in this world, it was stopped by god himself).
You have aroused my curiosity now. Through out my time in church I witnessed and took part regularly in the process of praying for healing by ‘laying on of hands’ and believing that this was encouraged and supported in the Bible.
Obviously I dont want to hijack the thread but I would love to know if this practice is not supported by the Word of God.
I just sent a email to Billy Graham & jack Van Impe on this subject and what they thought. I should receive confirmation on this in a couple days. I did read this somewhere, but I might have mis-read it/interpitted it. I will let you know as soon as I get a reply. I tryed to find this myself but I cant find it now, hence the email to my fellow christians Billy & Jack. [/quote]
The verse that is being referred to is
I Tim 5:22
1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.
and in this instance he is taking it out of context.
The entire chapter is dealing with the office of ministry, not laying your hands on people and praying for them.
The MCC says this about the verse
“III. Concerning the ordination of ministers (1Ti_5:22): Lay hands suddenly on no man; it seems to be meant of the ordaining of men to the office of the ministry, which ought not to be done rashly and inconsiderately, and before due trial made of their gifts and graces, their abilities and qualifications for it. Some understand it of absolution: ?Be not too hasty in laying hands on any; remit not the censure of the church to any, till time be first taken for the proof of their sincerity in their repentance, neither be partakers of other men’s sins, implying that those who are too easy in remitting the censures of the church encourage others in the sins which are thus connived at, and make themselves thereby guilty.? Observe, We have great need to watch over ourselves at all times, that we do not make ourselves partakers of other men’s sins. ?Keep thyself pure, not only from doing the like thyself, but from countenancing it, or being any way accessary to it, in others.? Here is, 1. A caution against the rash ordination of ministers, or absolution of those who have been under church-censures: Lay hands suddenly on no man. 2. Those who are rash, either in the one case or the other, will make themselves partakers in other men’s sins. 3. We must keep ourselves pure, if we will be pure; the grace of God makes and keeps us pure, but it is by our own endeavours.”
[quote]Dragon wrote:
Northcott wrote:
Dragon wrote:
From what ive seen on christian television, nowdays speaking in tongues looks as fake as the davici code/ dead sea crolls/ the book of judas…
You’re kidding… right?
Anything that is not said in the bible or is a book in the bible is dotrine of demons & blastphemy. The divinci code is pure blastphamy, the dead sea scrolls is a dotrine of demons, the “judas” papers they just found is a dotrine of demons. Anything that is trying to be added or took away from the bible is false and those that try this God shall add unto him plagues and take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city. Thay will burn in the lake of fire, the last & worst layer of hell. I have no mercy for these authors or peolpe dead. The ones alive I do pray that they change there ways and come forward with there deceptions, but if they dont, may there souls spent eternity in torment unimaginable and not know. Amen.
Dragon[/quote]
How do you know that someone is going to hell because they don’t believe in the same thing you do? And why would you wish someone to have their souls infinitely tormented? I wouldn’t wish that on anyone save child molesters, rapists, etc. and certainly not for a damn eternity…and stop saying “God will do this and that,” as far as I’m concerned we all could get up there and he could flip the script completely, not trying to take away anything from the Bible or anything…
[quote]helga wrote:
You have aroused my curiosity now. Through out my time in church I witnessed and took part regularly in the process of praying for healing by ‘laying on of hands’ and believing that this was encouraged and supported in the Bible.[/quote]
Speaking in tongues, praying for healing, and laying on of hands are all Biblical actions. The difference is in their usefulness in this era of the Church.
God used speaking in tongues as a way to communicate the Gospel message of Jesus the Messiah to the world. Speaking in tongues made the spread of this message quicker. It also added a stamp of authenticity to the message, i.e. “This must be true, for it was accompanied by a miracle”. Is it unbelievable that the God who made the world could cause someone to speak in different languages as in Acts? The God who scrambled language at the Tower of Babel unscrambled it to spread the Word of His love. I believe that Biblical speaking in tongues was controlable and understandable by someone in the audience. Otherwise it was useless. Can God do this miracle today? Certainly. Is it the move of God (speaking in tongues) to make wild noises that mean nothing to anyone? I don’t think so. My opinion.
The difference with laying on of hands and prayer for healing is that I think God still works that way. Laying on of hands is a posture of prayer. We don’t just lay hands for prayers of healing, but also when setting apart an elder or minister (ordaining) or in intense prayer for an individual. In the Bible, some people lay down (prostrate), or raised their hands in prayer. Do you? I dunno. Suit yourself. I think God is more interested in the condition of your heart and what you have to say - rather than focusing on your posture. I believe God still listens to prayer today. Sometimes we pray for healing. Sometimes his answer is yes.
All my opinion, I believe to be based on my studies of the Bible.
[quote]haney wrote:
You do know the Dead sea scrolls contain the oldest copies of the old testament we have don’t you?
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t know that. unless you are saying the OT is a demonic book.[/quote]
nope, didnt know that. I just did a google search and as you say it is the oldest version. This might sound a little dumb, but it was late and for some reason I thought the dead sea scrolls was this “missing books of the bible” books I read about 4 years back. Thay were interesting but my pastor and a few other pastors told me to watch out about those kind of books. I was wrong, sorry if I affended anybody.
[quote]haney wrote:
Dragon
You do know the Dead sea scrolls contain the oldest copies of the old testament we have don’t you?
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t know that. unless you are saying the OT is a demonic book.[/quote]
I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed his post was tongue-in-cheek. Then I read the rest of this thread. Now I’m assuming that he’s Pookie’s alter ego, created to reinforce negative fundamentalist stereotypes. Well played, sir!
[quote]haney wrote:
Dragon wrote:
helga wrote:
Dragon wrote:
It allmost as bad as that healing of hands you see that guy with the white hair do on Christian satelite (the bible cleary states healing with hands no longer exist in this world, it was stopped by god himself).
You have aroused my curiosity now. Through out my time in church I witnessed and took part regularly in the process of praying for healing by ‘laying on of hands’ and believing that this was encouraged and supported in the Bible.
Obviously I dont want to hijack the thread but I would love to know if this practice is not supported by the Word of God.
I just sent a email to Billy Graham & jack Van Impe on this subject and what they thought. I should receive confirmation on this in a couple days. I did read this somewhere, but I might have mis-read it/interpitted it. I will let you know as soon as I get a reply. I tryed to find this myself but I cant find it now, hence the email to my fellow christians Billy & Jack.
The verse that is being referred to is
I Tim 5:22
1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.
and in this instance he is taking it out of context.
The entire chapter is dealing with the office of ministry, not laying your hands on people and praying for them.
The MCC says this about the verse
“III. Concerning the ordination of ministers (1Ti_5:22): Lay hands suddenly on no man; it seems to be meant of the ordaining of men to the office of the ministry, which ought not to be done rashly and inconsiderately, and before due trial made of their gifts and graces, their abilities and qualifications for it. Some understand it of absolution: ?Be not too hasty in laying hands on any; remit not the censure of the church to any, till time be first taken for the proof of their sincerity in their repentance, neither be partakers of other men’s sins, implying that those who are too easy in remitting the censures of the church encourage others in the sins which are thus connived at, and make themselves thereby guilty.? Observe, We have great need to watch over ourselves at all times, that we do not make ourselves partakers of other men’s sins. ?Keep thyself pure, not only from doing the like thyself, but from countenancing it, or being any way accessary to it, in others.? Here is, 1. A caution against the rash ordination of ministers, or absolution of those who have been under church-censures: Lay hands suddenly on no man. 2. Those who are rash, either in the one case or the other, will make themselves partakers in other men’s sins. 3. We must keep ourselves pure, if we will be pure; the grace of God makes and keeps us pure, but it is by our own endeavours.”[/quote]
This is still not the verse I was talking about. You might want to ask next time before you say this is the verse or you might end up saying the wrong thing like I did earlier with the dead sea scroll thing.
[quote]Dragon wrote:
nope, didnt know that. I just did a google search and as you say it is the oldest version. This might sound a little dumb, but it was late and for some reason I thought the dead sea scrolls was this “missing books of the bible” books I read about 4 years back. Thay were interesting but my pastor and a few other pastors told me to watch out about those kind of books. I was wrong, sorry if I affended anybody. [/quote]
See, I was right. This can’t be a real person.