If JMB and the rest of the T Crew are nice enough to post research findings and help answer our questions, why in the world would you treat them like shit. These guys do not have to come here and help us, they do it because they like to help. Stop being jackasses.
Absolute, unequivocal proof? Nope. Increasing research, empirical, and anecdotal evidence of the downsides of soy…testosterone and thyroid suppression, plus accelerated protein breakdown? Yep! I’d suggest you wrangle yourself an open mind and read or reread TC’s “Bad Protein: A Testosterone consumer report” and Cy Wilson’s “The Evils of Soy.” Next, for some info soy’s ability to screw with your thyroid, take a look at http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/cs/soysdownsides/ Then, after having done that, ask yourself a question? Given what I’ve just read, if I were a coach/trainer whose reputation and livelihood depended on delivering not just good, but maximum, cutting-edge performance, would I honestly recommend soy to my clients? If yes, then you are to protein what Mike Mentzer was to bodybuilding.
well soy’s biological value is poor, but biological value is the worst idea for an indicator you can get… it’s an amino acid comparison to the egg. The egg is not the end off of human amino-acid requirements, if you do an adjusted comparison and base it upon human Amino-acid requirements then egg and soy get the same score.
the isoflavones are what i have a problem with not the protein itself.
I reckon it should be Job Beradi (as in the patience of), cause I can’t believe that JMB keeps putting scientific studies here and then people say “yeah but I did this…” and say that the studies are a crock. John, thanks for the info, and by the way do you lift weights too? LOL
this question is directed to mike mahler. just what exactly does your diet consist of, speaking of no meat that is.
I don’t eat soy protein or products. I like my muscle. Ever check out those oriental peeps that eat lots of soy and rice? 5’3 and 110 pounds, not my ideal physique. Ever see the Russian dudes, sure they juiced, but one of em was like 6’2, 450 pounds, jerk over 1000, 36 eggs for breakfast; I follow in his footsteps using salmon, eggs, and beef as power foods. Yeah, JMB is in the research field, he came up with Surge and Massive Eating (Massive Eating was really a breakthrough for me).
What about the alternative? I have been training less than one year and have gained approximately 40 lean pounds. Keep in mind I do have the advantage of being 15, which is like constant deca/test cypionate or the like. I mainly consume meat, raw/cooked veggies, and eggs; I eat small amounts of grain, fruits, and milk products, which I have found to be optimal for me. I do not eat soy, but like soy advocates have said, I think the studies should be looked at as a whole, like the Bible, and not certain pieces picked out and doctrine/hatred formed on that. From having read T-Mag-type studies on soy and the FDA-type I have concluded I can get the benefits of soy from other foods that have been shown to increase T. I have tried lots of things, and for myself I have found the optimal blend to be the foods I’m eating now w/ Massive Eating. As for the moral issue MM, lots of the animals that we eat are not very intelligent, aside from pigs. The pork I eat is locally raised, maybe half the beef I eat is locally raised, the chicken is not but the eggs are, the deer is given to us from locals that hunt for sport.
Patty, comparing your 15 year old body to my 30 year old body is like comparing apples and oranges. You could eat chocolate pies all day long and as long as you are lifting and eating, you are going to grow with all the T flowing in your body. I am not hear to debate the research I am just telling people what soy protein has done for me on a personal level and Mike Mahler has had the same experience. I have not heard one person on this forum say that they have used soy (personally) and said their T levels or thyroid levels or lean body mass have gone down. Until there is a double blind study published in a major medical journal, the verdict is still out on soy.
Hey Patty, what’s up with the jabs at Asian? I realize that there are distinct racial differences. I doubt that there will ever be an Asian Spud Webb or a Michael Jordan, but I doubt that there will ever be a white one either. I also doubt that consumption of rice and soy has much to do with one’s stature–it is more of a function of total calories. When I visited Korea three years ago, I was shocked to see so many of the young kids who were a good 6" taller than their parents. I would guestimate that the average height of the young Korean male is around 5’ 10". The young kids are growing up eating much better than their parents. They eat pretty much the same things–rice, vegetables, pork, beef…and yes soy too, but they were eating much more of it than their parents were able to afford when they were growing up. Yeah, the Russians may dominate the heavy weight classes in the lifting events, but take a close look at the lighter classes next time. You’ll see Asian, particularly the Chinese, dominating the events. It has been my experience, that the strongest guys in the gym, pound for pound, are Vietnamese guys. Some of these 5’4" 115 lb guys were outlifting most of the 180 lb frat boys. Perhaps you didn’t mean any harm by your comments, but something about it really irked me.
I have to agree with you hyok - some of the leanest and strongest guys for their size at my gym are asian. Genetics are something none of us can control, but desire takes over where genetics leave off. No one has any excuse, you are only limited by your lack of willingness to sacrifice. Time is an amazing force.
Sorry my comment bothered you, I didn’t mean any harm by it. It’s the same kind of comment as caucasian people tend to have less fast twitch fiber than African Americans, no harm meant, just a fact.
2 things about patty’s comment. NO ONE can jerk 1000lbs, more like a bit over 500. 2) She is atleast rather correct that you rarely see a superstar weightlifter that is asain (although this is not impossible). My current belief is that is more related to bone structure than muscle. Finally it is not a fact that whites generally have less FT than blacks. It is a noted phenomenon. However for it to be a fact i would like an analysis of most of the white and black population. Furthermore, how does that explain the phenomenon of kenyan marathon runners. They are certainly black but certainly have a very high amount of slow twitch fibers, lending themselves to endurance. I know t-mag had an article on this, but it was to note things, not show facts.
Patty, you really piss me off? Your trying to tell me that just because you do not feel that most animals are “intelligent” that it is okay to kill them? Give me a break. Most people are stupid as well. Is it okay to kill them as well? I think that it is immoral to kill animals and raise them in horrendous animal factories. It is has nothing to do with what I feel their perceived intelligence might be.
A comment, Dman. Africa has a great deal of genetic diversity. Just by saying someone is black only scratches the surface the person’s genetic heritage. People of west African descent tend to have large mascular frames with high amounts of fast twitch fibers. East Africans tend to have small muscle fibers that take in oxygen very efficiently and they are predominantly slow twitch. I think people often assume that because someone is black that they are all of the same genetic stock, but next time take a close look at people from Africa. Aside from the skin color, there are varieties of facial types, depending on what region they’re from.
cjack, I’ve actually posted several times my negative experience with soy. It did indeed slow my thyroid and depress my testosterone levels. They wanted to put my on Thyrolar and told me to take DHEA to get my test and DHEA levels back up. At the time I was still a teenager but had the test levels of a 50 year old. I stopped consuming soy and in a couple of months, the malaise I had felt was gone. Granted, it’s just one person’s experience, but my family has also experienced thyroid suppression as a result of soy, and the anecdotes abound. Sure, they’re just anecdotes, but then, there are also studies like the one posted here by JMB.
Thanks for the personal experience with soy. Were you taking soy protein or eating soy foods. By the way there is a lot of studies on soy that have not been published here on Tmag that can weigh the other way. Some have suggested that soy suppresses thyroid function, and that this
could either cause or worsen the condition of hypo-thyroid. This idea
stems from animal studies where high soy has increased levels of thyroid
hormone, and from test tube experiments where isoflavones block the
action of thyroid-related enzymes. There was a study that examined that very issue. It was reported at the Experimental
Biology 2000 meeting in May (I don’t have the reference). Levels of thyroid hormones and thyroid
stimulating hormone (TSH) were measured in postmenopausal women getting
supplemental isoflavones or a placebo for six months. No changes in TSH
or other thyroid hormones were seen in either group over this period.
Another research group reported similar observations in adults consuming
similar levels of isoflavones over a one-year period.
Although I did very occasionally eat tofu and miso, most of my soy intake was from soy protein isolates. In my mother’s case, most of her intake was from tofu. In my sister it was a mix of the two.
All you dumbasses that think soy is great, use soy as your ONLY protien source!!! Come on, be a “man” and back up your talk!! I for one, would never use something given to post-menapausal women for it’s ESTROGENIC properties. Why BOTH men & women lost muscle— Estrogen is a steroid in women(post-men.) And Clyde–3 years JUST MAINTAINING??? Damn, I’ve put on more than 30 lbs.& strength increases are common. I DO NOT WANT TO STAY THE SAME!!!