Am leaving for a convention in Atlantic City in an hour. Will be returning late Wednesday night; hope all the “soy peddler dudes” will have been ousted from the forum by then!!!
P.S. Will be consuming much prime rib and other meaty delights!
If soy were such a muscle building testosterone booster, the chinese would be some big mofos!
To TEK.
I am not vegetarian. I am almost an animal. I eat meat every day! up to 5 times per day (then I finish of with a cheese).
In college my nickname is “turkey man”.
I guess you know why. Turkey rocks as a meat source.
to steely eyes.
Your research article about asians was pretty nice, howeever.
I dont know about you but I am not asian. SOme asian people like those monks MAY react to soy that way. But unless your last name is CHANG WONG or NGUYN you should not worry.
About persicided. Meat has more harmful chemicals in it than soy does. DOnt even try to dispute that. Soy does have more muscle recovery chemical (glutamine) in it than whey!
9.5 VS 4.9.
Soy does have PROVEN medical benefits unlike meat or whey (well a bit of glutamine in whey is good for you. However soy has 2x as much.)
I don’t know why I’m bothering to argue with you, but dude, the Weston Price Foundation is a non profit organization, they aren’t trying to sell anything. I’m sorry, the truth is that soy isn’t looking too good in the studies, not just for bodybuilding but for general health as well.
Cy Willson. You are pretty smart and intellegent person. I understand you trying to know the right answer but>
Soy has DOUBLE the amounts of Glutamine and L-Arnine than many other protein source. Beef comes close to soy. But we are not talking about beef.
Glutamine gives you better recovery ability. GREAT for hard woking bodybuilders who punish themselves hard
L-Arginine -
Arginine plays several roles in the body such as fighting mental and physical fatigue, but its main job is to assist with growth. This amino acid promotes the release of two highly anabolic hormones, insulin and growth hormone. Arginine promotes gains further by assisting in recovery from post workout muscle trauma through its ability to speed tissue healing. This amino acid aids in the detoxification of the liver by removing ammonium from the body. Arginine has also shown the ability to lower LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood
You dont need proof. We know what glutamine and others do to you. SOy has one of the highest amount of these compounds.
Ofcourse soy lacks in some compounds like methionine (sp?). That is why it is smart to use multiple protein sources. Howeever soy iosnt dangerous to most people. ANd unlike meat that CAN hurt kidneys, soy is kidney friendly…
Eddie.
Chinease people are starving. They have bigger problems than going to the gym. Some asians are pretty big, who do workout properly.
Look at Bolo Yeng. He is pretty muscualar! Cant argue with that!!!
We americans are living above our means so we can afford lots of things, one of them is wasting time going to the gym and watching superbowl XXXVI
I didnt write the below thing… But I kinda found it to be interesting:
animal proteins do have complete sets of aminos available, however, this need to consume beef, chicken, etc., to obtain a complete set of aminos for muscle repair as well as the construction of enzymes, etc., is misrepresented by the popular press. The beef, poultry and milk industries have also done a lot to foster this notion.
The answer to this, however, is a long one:
First, whatever food you consume must go through the digestive process as you’re aware. If it is a protein–plant or animal–the food consumed will be broken down to its basic structure, that is, amino acids. The same thing happens with carbohydrates, where the long (or short) molecular chains of sugars or saccharides are broken down by digestive enzymes. So while animal (and plant!!) proteins start out as long molecular chains, they end up as individual amino acids after digestion.
Now, aminos are used, as you note, for tissue repair. However, are all aminos needed and are they used equally? Research has shown this isn’t the case. As a result, aminos become part of an amino acid pool which allows your cells to extract aminos that are needed at that time. Excessive aminos or proteins are of course excreeted. (Do some web searches on amino acid pools and see what the biochemists say…I think you’ll find it conflicts with most of the popular press and diet gurus actually report.) As you can probably summarize from this point, whether it is an amino derived from animal or plant source, it ends up in the same place.
In addition, it is also important to remember proteins are found in all foods derived from both animals and plants, unless they have been removed and modified chemically, mechanically, etc. Most college textbooks will show most plant foods we eat contain 100% of all proteins, only in varying proportions. [Hence dispelling the myth about plant proteins lacking all aminos.] Therefore, if you follow the recommendations of the MDs and nurtitionists on vegsource and eat a variety of plant-based foods, you’ll capture all of the aminos you need. Even if you chose to do what some vegetarian world class athletes do, and add a little non-fat milk products back into your diet, you’re still fully covered. (Multi-title holder Dave Scott, who is one of the best triathletes the world has seen, was and is a vegetarian who consumes non-fat milk products–cottage cheese, etc.–periodically.)
Next, the need for protein in athletes is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy overblown. Why? As they say, “Follow the money”. The price of protein supplements, per ounce, is 4 - 6 times that (in some cases) as that of food!! For example, an individual package of MetRX sold in stores runs around $2.99; a can of tuna is $.89 and a bag of dried black beans (four - six servings?) is $.79. Hmmm. (And where do all of those MetRX, Myoplex and other supplement packages end up? They sure aren’t biodegradable!!!)
The University of Surrey in England and the World Health Organization did an extensive follow up study on the original work done on protein requirements in the 1950s and found that much of the information that was originally derived was based on the work done on infants (!!), whose dietary protein needs are only slightly higher, proportionately, than those of children, adolescents and adults. But, if you do some digging, you’ll find that breast milk is not all that high in protein, proportionately–unlike manufactured forumlas loaded with foreign proteins and sugars! Applying that to active and sedentary adults, both groups came up with the same conclusion–most people are consuming way too much protein.
Finally, you don’t run the health risks associated with animal proteins including steroids, antibiotics, saturated fats, cholesterol, etc., if you consume plant instead of animal-based proteins.
So what does this all mean? In summary:
- Both animals and plants contain all aminos, just in varying degrees.
- Your body will take the proteins it consumes and use it accordingly and where needed.
- Plant-based proteins are safer–you don’t run the health risks today’s beef and poultry present (read John Robbins’ books for more info on this).
- You can take care of all of your protein requirements by consuming a well-rounded vegetarian diet. If you do want to supplement it, check out the excellent post by Orb http://www.vegsource.com/talk/athletes/messages/56446.html.
Hope that helps!
TER
To CY.
Your article on soy is pretty good but. You yourself make some assumptions and errors.
In the study, men about 80 years of age who ate tofu at least twice a week over a span of 30 years scored worse on mental tests than men who ate little or no tofu (Jour. of the Amer. College of Nutrition, Apr 2000). But before you trash your tofu, soy milk, or other soy foods, remember this:
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This type of epidemiologic study cannot prove cause and effect. It may be something else that the tofu eaters also do that caused these findings, like genetics and some other ethnic foods. We need follow-up research.
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In eastern Asia, where soy foods are staples, rates of dementia in old age are lower than they are in Europe, where soy foods are uncommon. See! maybe so is good!!!
Bottom-line advice: If you enjoy soy, experts say that this one study isn’t reason enough to give it up.
Soy is good for erections!
Arginine stimulates the release of nitric oxide in the penis. Nitric oxide is responsible for the vaso dilation that occurs when one gets an erection. Fifteen male impotence patients received a placebo for two weeks. No improvement occurred. These same subjects were then (unbenknownst to them) switched to 2,800 mg of arginine per day for a further two weeks. Six men (40%) reported improvement in their erections and improved penetration ability. (Zorgniotti, A., et al. Effect of large doses of the nitric oxide precursor, L-arginine, on erectile dysfunction. Int J Impotence Res. 6:33-36, 1994.)
For the ladies, Arginine also facilitates orgasms also!(Block, W. Sexual enhancement available to women too. Viagra duality: better to NO? Life Enhancement. July 1998:15-18.)
Were these subjects given straight Arginine, or Arginine IN THE FORM OF SOY? We aren’t debating the efficacy of arginine, we’re focusing on soy. Pointing out all of the good things about soy is completely useless due to its well-publicized side effects. Raw meat is loaded with iron, protein, riboflavin, zinc, etc. However, eating it raw will still COMPLETELY FUCK YOU UP! But hey, why not market raw meat just because cooking is a hassle, it helps to eliminate anemia, fulfills daily protein requirements, and offers plenty of other vitamins?
I agree with Steely, Asians eat soy in moderation, not as main a source of protein. In Japan, most protein comes from seafod.In China,it dpends on the region but ther is a lot of pork, chicken, lamb and seafood. Its funny but I just looked through the tabel of contents of my Indian vegetarian cook book and there is not one listing for tofu, beancurd or soy beans. India probably has one of the highest vegetarian populations in the world. I sai this once before on another post but I have been eating tofu for thirty years with no ill effects, but I do not eatit all the time, maybe once a week. Like any thing else moderation is the key. I am asian but my name is not CHANG WONG OR NYGUN in case you are wondering same dude.
If I didn’t have enough reasons to stay away from soy, I do now. Apparently, soy consumption is a contributing factor in the inability to read references found at the ends of articles. In addition, rampant soy consumption can inhibit the development of ones written communication skills.
Finally, regular exposure to soy can cause delusions of grandeur, making persons believe that they are competent to debate guys who really do know their shit. No thanks. I’ll stick to steaks and whey.
Ok Demo dick.
SHow me someon e who actually started growing tits. Many people drink soy yet I dont see any tits. Japanese people eat soy, tofu and such…
I dont see them having breasts or being very fat!
If soy was so horrible than why do those people BENEFIT from soy?!!! Why its good for them and bad for us?
a few thoughts on your comments to Cy…First, glutamine is cheap. You won’t sell me soy by bragging that it has more G in it, because I can get a kilo for $30. Second, Cy referenced a study that found that soy also lowers HDL cholesterol–the GOOD kind. That means soy also interferes with the heart-healthy anti-cholesterol benefits you brag on. Third, Cy has referenced studies that find soy to retard metabolism by interfering with the thyroid, and with thyroid medications. Fourth, why bother with the soy controversy anyway, no matter who’s right, when whey, casein, egg and meat proteins are abundant, excellent, and affordable?
i wasnt bashing chinese people and not all of china is starving, thats like saying america is starving just we have alot of hobos in the cities of america. Not that alot of china isnt starving. I was just trine to make a point about soy jeeze.
LOL. What?! What are you talking about? I don’t even remember referencing that study! Secondly, it has to do with cognition and not the subjects at hand. Even so it’s just one more reason not to consume soy. Thanks for the support! 
If you had a any kind of background or study of genetics, chemistry, even basic biology, you could understand where I’m coming from but instead you choose to rattle off what other people say instead of actually doing some research. Soy has arginine? Arginine? So what. lol Is this the same arginine that guys used in the 80’s thinking that the rise in GH seen would get them great gains? Sounds like a marketing piece to me. There are at least two studies that I’m aware of that have demonstrated that soy actually has catabolic effects on muscle tissue in high concentrations. You also contradict yourself quite a bit. You say, “show me human studies” so I do and then you say, “well this study shows this” but it was done in animal models.
I regret to say but I have tried soy protein isolate for an extensive period of time with disheartening results. after cycling with it for 50 days @ 15 g/d, I developed gynecomastia around the nipple area. I’m eager to rid myself of bitch tits but the only option I’ve been recommended is surgery. as a bodybuilder, this is the worst chemical I’ve ever consumed, and to think I actually paid money to be deformed - what a disaster!
Japanese people are healthy because they eat a diet rich in nutrients, seafood, seaweed, mushrooms, vegetables that have not been processed or cooked to shit. Soy is a part of the diet but a small part. But then again soy intake could could be why few Japanese men have good muscular devlopment.