T Nation

Soy protein. One of the BEST! Really??!

This is taken from
http://www.sover.net/~timw/soyvswhy.htm

Few quick pointers. If you dont want to read the above article fully

  1. Soy’s Digestability absorbtion is same as Whey Casein egss and whateveer.

2)Soy has more glutamine than Whey

  1. It releases good hormones. It stabilizes your hormones.

4)Soy isoflavones are great. You get less estrogen, and thus you are more manly. The estrogen found in soy is very weak. But it binds to your estrogen receptors and occupies that site so stronger, real estrogens can’t get there (like estradiol).

  1. Soy protein is healthier than other protein

  2. Soy protein reduces nitriogen loss and thus it is great for bodybuilders, since in positive nitrogen balance muscle masss increases.

Whjat do you all think about this?
I am really confused now!

I didn’t bother to go read the site but it sounds as if undoubtly it is promoted by the soy industry. Just because somebody prints something or does a biased “study” designed to support their industry doesn’t make it true. I’m sure this is what the soy industry would like you to believe. And their promotion of soy is not to benefit you (though that is what they would like you to think) but benefit their sale of soy and resulting profits. It sounds like another feeble misinformation “advertisment” by the soy industry. I suppose a small amount of soy wouldn’t cause a lot of problems but personally, I would never eat soy in the quantities that I eat other proteins.

ADM would love for us to think that shit is good for us…so they can get our hard earned cash. They aren’t the first to manipulate stories to increase market share. CW Post did it. Edison and Tesla did it. It’s an old tradition in “marketing”.

Well. HEB.

Your argument can be turned around easily. How do you know that Soy uses deceptful marketing and not Whey? What makes you think that this whole Soy-scare is not made by some companies who compete with Soy?

Guys who sell whey claim it is the best and other brands are bad, guys who sell casein say it is the best and whey is inferior.

Alot of soy scare is based on many assumptions and little evidence. Just look at japanese people. They are healthy, they eat lots of soy and tofu. Sure they are not huge, but they dont lift weights!!! They have bigger problems than that!

“a same guy”- You’re argument is very flawed. There is no “competition” with soy. If a company wants to sell soy protein they can. It’s not like someone out there owns all the soy and others can’t get it. Biotest could easily sell soy protein if they wanted to, probably even make it taste good. They don’t because they know it’s crap best left as filler for poor quality dry dog food (a popular use for soy.)

On the other hand, I’m sure some of those that sell soy thinks it’s great. But there are just as many who know it’s no good for bodybuilding or overall health but sell it anyway because 1) there’s a market for it and 2) the profit margin is much higher so they can make more dough off it compared to a quality pure casein/whey product.

So instead of saying, “They don’t like it because they don’t sell it”, you should be asking, “WHY don’t they sell it?” Answer: They don’t sell it because they don’t like it.

As a side note, the faceless megacorp supplement companies like Twinlab (and now EAS) just sell everything. The goal is to cover the whole market, not sell stuff they truly believe in. The unspoken motto is “If there’s a market for it, sell it.” Hence you get companies that still sell HMB, pyruvate, and plant sterols. Twinlab tries to cover the whole spectrum by selling every new supplement that comes out. You can’t even keep up with what’s new from them or EAS. Twinlab even sells baby and pre-natal vitamins and EAS is coming out with a Slim Fast copy and Red Bull knockoff. Beware the megacorp.

Heb,

Soy p[rotein has twice as much glutamine ans whey and other compounds. It helpos you with reducing your estrogen levels and such~

I’d rather just drop the extra few bucks on separate glutamine, whey, and casein than buy soy for less and wind up with bitch tits…

For Chris Shugart.

Well the thing is that Soy has been tested and it actually outperformed whey. Sure soy isnt perfect, but none protein sources avaiulable to us are perfect.

These are the facts proven about soy. They were researched properly

  1. Soy fights cancer and has anti-estrogenic effects.

  2. Soy has the highest amount of BCAA
    glutamine and arginine.

  3. Soy may raise the level of
    endogenous production of thyroxin, which in turns speeds up metabolism.

  4. Daidzein, one of soy’s isoflavones,
    may raise the level of testosterone and
    growth hormone.

  5. A diet rich in soy decreased the
    chance of heart disease.

Soy protein is considered a must in a
bodybuilders diet. Due to extreme low cost, bodybuilders experience great gains in muscle mass and decrease in body fat.

Show me the actual real studies that have shown
that soy is bad. Dont use mice as an example, I am not a mickey mouse I am a human!

Most of soy scare is based on half truth and un educated guesses. Yes soy has estrogenic compounds. Howeever by ingesting these compounds you are not growing tits because these estrogenic compounds act differently than say estradiol. Infact these estrogen compounds PROTECT you from estrogen. Like, a cheap version of ARIMIDEX or Nolvadex!

same dud,e you’re a dick head

Here’s some stuff I dug up:

““Traditionally fermented soy products make a delicious, natural seasoning that may supply important nutritional factors in the Asian diet. But except in times of famine, Asians consume soy products only in small amounts, as condiments, and not as a replacement for animal foods - with one exception. Celibate monks living in monasteries and leading a vegetarian lifestyle find soy foods quite helpful because they dampen libido.””

Hmm. That dampen libido thing sounds like the phytoestrogens do a bit more than "protect" you from estradiols.

““Male infants undergo a “testosterone surge” during the first few months of life, when testosterone levels may be as high as those of an adult male. During this period, the infant is programmed to express male characteristics after puberty, not only in the development of his sexual organs and other masculine physical traits, but also in setting patterns in the brain characteristic of male behaviour. In monkeys, deficiency of male hormones impairs the development of spatial perception (which, in humans, is normally more acute in men than in women), of learning ability and of visual discrimination tasks (such as would be required for reading). It goes without saying that future patterns of sexual orientation may also be influenced by the early hormonal environment. Male children exposed during gestation to diethylstilbestrol (DES), a synthetic oestrogen that has effects on animals similar to those of phytoestrogens from soy, had testes smaller than normal on manturation.””

Oh well, those testicle things just get in the way most of the time...they'll just be more streamlined.

““New data indicate that environmental oestrogens such as PCBs and DDE (a breakdown product of DDT) may cause early sexual development in girls. In the 1986 Puerto Rico Premature Thelarche study, the most significant dietary association with premature sexual development was not chicken - as reported in the press - but soy infant formula.
The consequences of this truncated childhood are tragic. Young girls with mature bodies must cope with feelings and urges that most children are not well-equipped to handle. And early maturation in girls is frequently a harbinger for problems with the reproductive system later in life, including failure to menstruate, infertility and breast cancer””

Sounds good to me. I'm running right out to buy a barrel of soy protein for my kids in the morning!

Whey is part of milk. Mammals have evolved over millions of years to grow from milk in their early years. Casein, same deal. Eggs also are full of energy to pass on to the chick as it grows in the shell. Soy beans are loaded with natural pesticides to protect the bean from being used as food so another soy plant can grow from it instead. Those are the anti-nutrients (toxins) that are a part of the problem. If you want to chow down on a bunch of soy be my guest. I’ll stick to real food.

Most of those “facts” that you stated WERE seen in animal research(isoflavones raising GH and Testosterone) NOT human specimen. Oh and there is human research supporting a reduction in endogenous testosterone levels in men. I’ve gone over every one of your points and provided ample evidence to refute them. Read “evil soy” and “xenoestrogens.” Statements like, “these are the FACTS PROVEN by soy” demonstrates a few things to me. Let clue you in on something… there are no “facts” and research is not used to “prove” anything in science, but rather to provide support. Your ideas have little support and day by day more and more studies have been concluded which support the idea that soy can have adverse effects in the male.

Why call same dude a dickhead. He doesnt agree with you or some of T-mags writers SO FUCKING WHAT. He has made some very valid points. He is going against the grain which in the last atomic dog was commended! Why try to put down a person that is an independant thinker and providing some of the puzzle that others havent?
I (and im guessing most of the readers of this forum) dont necasserily like soy but do like to read and learn and to do that we like to hear from as many sources as possible!

What sucks is that a few years back because of that
KNUCKLE-HEAD Dan Duchaine and his radical ideas, I was swallowing a “ton” of genistein and daidzein in order to fight estrogen; or so I thought! I was using Twin Labs Mega Soy for about 6 months (about 6 caps per day). Each cap contained 39mgs of genistein and 34mgs of daidzein. For almost a full year I also consumed well over a pound a week of soy based protein powder, mostly Twin Labs Veggie Fuel. All this was between 3 and 4 years ago.

My "T" levels have declined BIG TIME ever since: Decline in sexual appetite and function, weaker erections, longer time to recover from workouts, and feelings of lethargy... A Guy: I am probably living proof that you are DEAD WRONG!!! P.S. Thank God for Androsol ...it's been quite helpful...in more ways than one!

In case I didn’t make myself clear, it is my FIRM
BELIEF that large doses of soy + soy isoflavones
really fucked me up BIG TIME!!!

Read this article:
www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/ myths_truths_soy.html
Soy sucks!

I don’t have time to argue anymore with closed minded fools. My advice to you is you be your own “human studies” and prove it to yourself just as Joey has. And I’ll even help you out - you can have may share of soy to double your “benefits”. Hell, if soy is so good - eat nothing but soy. Hell, if it even speeds up your metabolism as you say then up your calories with soy as surely you won’t get fat. I’ll bet your dad or uncle works for the soy industry. I have no further argument with you - I was mistaken and urge you to eat all the soy you can. I’m sure it will make you big and massive as you think - at least big and massive somewhere.

Wow…this thread is taking on the passionate tone of the Liver Tab supporters…amazing that we get so passionate about things like this. Anyway, here’s my take:


1)The only “true” benefit of Soy that I could research was caridiovascular. However…I think that cardiocascular health (both heart AND vessels) is LOADS more dependent on a)cessation of smoking b)avoiding obesity and extreme yo-yo dieting c)eating phytochemical/anti-oxidant and ORAC unit rich fruits and veggies d)avoiding TRANS fatty acids in favor of EFA’s, mono’s and poly’s unsaturates e)avoid highly processed, high GI index foods that often contain TRANS fatty acids and lead to large insulin fluctuations f)exercise g)monitor our BP and h)avoid constant stress. Do these things and the benefits of adding Soy become almost negligible. DON’T do these things and Soy ain’t gonna help you.


2)You have all the points and counterpoints. You simply have to make your decision. Since my caridiovascular health is MUCH more dependent on other factors, the benefits of Soy become suspect at best.


I choose not to use it. You have to make that same choice for yourself…

goto

www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/ myths_truths_beef.html

that site wants to advertise its meat or soemthing. SO they try to scare people into
stop using soy and start using meat!

You have to understand what really lies beneth their “myths and facts”

to boombam

That soy scare doesnt have much studies to prove it and it contains half truth.
Sure soy has less x and y compound . (methionine and something). But it has 2x of whey in glutamine and sokmething else. cant remember!!!

glutamine is very important for recovery!@!!

Me thinks “same dude” is one of those deluded vegetarian Nazis. (No offense to the normal and sane veggies out there like Mike.)