[quote]rainjack wrote:
eic wrote:
A whole bunch of stuff you can read in the post above.
I am not stuck on epithet you used - just the fact that it seems okay for you to say whatever you want - but you have me pegged as the one making personal attacks.
My folding of the arms, as you say, is absolutely related to the fact that you have no knowledge of American farming practices. I don’t have the time, or inclination to hold an Ag Economics class, or a Commercial Ag production class.
I think if you want to know badly enough - you will find the information on your own.
My position is that if there is no proof to the contrary, and by proof I mean something that can be mutually respected from both sides - not some activist, junk science study, feeding soybean meal to chickens poses no p-estrogen danger in eggs.
I agree 100% that processed soy crap we are bombarded with is very dangerous to our health. But I don’t think that soybeans are inherently evil. Not nearly on the same scale - but I think corn is a great veggie, but the processed corn products such as the syrups, and the sugars that are processed from corn are an evil as well.
Your misunderstanding of farming practices, and your willingness to blame the farmer for everything that is wrong with our food supply is where I start in with the propaganda remarks. It is frustration with your ignorance that triggers it. And no - I am not making a personal dig. I mean ignorance in the purest definition of the word.
You define yourself here by the comment you make about the endocrine system, and the low testosterone levels that seem to be increasing in our male population. You want to blame the farmers for this. I would submit that is as much a function of being an overweight lazy ass than the eggs you eat.
Let me explain -
The American Farmer is at the mercy of the middlemen (packing houses, grain elevators, etc.) and the Federal Gov’t.
Price supports have crippled the ability of the farmer to change his practices. Oh - there are niche markets that some farmers can meet - but those are not even a blip on the food supply radar. the farmer raises as much as he can for the price that is being offered. They are the definition of a price taker. WHo is the biggest beneficiary of this? he grain companies, the food companies, and the american consumer.
We have the cheapest food supply in the world because of price controls, and highly efficient farming practices.
You want the farmer to change his ways? Where is the incentive to do so? If I raise grass fed beef and sell it to the packing house, I will go broke because of how horribly inefficient it is to feed out a steer on grass. I have to find a niche market for the grass fed, find a custom packer, and have a marketing department to sell the beef.
Or - I can send my steers to the feedlot for the last 4 months, and put 250 - 300 pounds on them, and save all the time and money of doing it myself.
If you want to change the profile of our food supply - someone has to give the farmer an incentive to want to change. They are only doing what will make them the most money. Ad as they say - money talks and bullshit walks.
Are they intentionally trying to poison us? Nope. They are using every legal means to raise the most efficient crop possible. They don’t have the ability to set their prices, or effect supply - that is a function of the middle men.
I understand your desire to have grass fed beef, range fed chickens, and prairie raised pork. But those are just not going to happen on a large scale until there is an incentive for the farmer to give you those products.
the grass fed beef thing will ever be mainstream because of the physical impossibility of grass feeding all the beef we consume. It takes 22 aces of grass in my area to raise one cow. The further south and west you go - it gets up into the 100’s of acres per cow. And that is in the growing season. When it is winter time - there is no grass, and you feed hay, and grain.
This is a lot if info, and I am sure I rambled more than necessary - but to get what you want, you are going to have to change the entire domestic agriculture industry. The evil people in this whole thing are not the producers, but the ones that buy their products.
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For the last time, I apologized for the FFA comment. You’ve never apologized for yours. Get over yourself.
You say that I have no knowledge for farming practices, then spill pages of e-ink explaining that, although what I’m advocating is a good thing, there isn’t a market to support it.
Dude, I’m not saying that the farmers are intentionally killing anyone. Only that, as YOU YOURSELF EXPLAINED, they do what they do because it is the most economical thing to do. Whether the market dictates it or not, or whether government regulations largely tie their hands or not, are not the issues.
The issue is that the farmers have economics and production as their primary concerns, not the benefit of such things as maximizing testosterone in dudes. You don’t even need to respond and tell me you agree with that statement; it is implicit in your post.
Look, you and I are getting nowhere on this issue. Frankly, you are quite stuck on the fact that you are apparently God’s gift to animal husbandry, which is all well and good. But the issues we’re discussing here don’t really depend on how to raise animals.
The issues we’re discussing are more based on economics, of which I’m quite confortable, than ag. practices. So your knowledge is largely irrelevant. In other words, I don’t give a fuck about the myriad ways to raise animals, only the reasons why things are done one way as opposed to another, also viable method.
You don’t dispute the viability of raising animals the natural way, only the practicality of doing so under current market conditions. Therefore, let me be clear that YOUR VAST KNOWLEDGE OF ANIMAL HUSBANDRY IS UTTERLY IRRELEVANT FOR EVERYTHING WE DISCUSS AFTER THAT POINT.
The issue is one of supply and demand. Most consumers have NO IDEA what they are putting in their mouths. When someone tries to express that, like me in this thread, for example, you and your cronies shout, “Fear-mongering” and “Propoganda.”
Then you turn around and say, “Well, we’d produce natural, pastured beef, but goddamn no body wants to buy it. We’d go out of business if we did!” So you influence the market choices by suppressing the alternative viewpoint in the most immature way, then turn around and shrug your shoulders at what the market dictates. Nice job.
Look, is the shit that you and your cronies feed American cattle the SOLE cause of lowered T-levels or sperm counts. Absolutely not. A HUGE cause? Maybe not. But it is, in my mind, a contributing factor.
You can’t seem to despute that. Or do you? If that isn’t true, then why the fuck did you waste time explaining how farmers are strapped to do what they do because of the market demand? If soy and all the other garbage you feed the fucking cows in lots is not a problem, then who cares what the market will bear?
Because, again, you can’t even begin to claim that your farming practices truly are the best way of doing things from the standpoint of maximum benefit to the consumer health. But oh you’re staying in business, aren’t you baby!
As for the argument that grass-fed beef production won’t work, yes, you’re right: Eating grass won’t fatten the cattle the way, say, soy will. Therefore you won’t be able to have huge fucking cows to cut up and sell for $0.97 a pound at HEB.
The pasture makes the cows smaller and can support fewer of them than a feed lot, so the price goes up a lot, as much as $12.00 per pound. Most will not buy this, you’re right, but it’s like the Matrix: they don’t know the difference in quality. I will because I believe there is a difference.
Here is at least an example of one operation that is doing things the right way: http://www.grasslandbeef.com/about.html
They seem to be doing quite well for themselves. You won’t, of course, find this product in HEB, so I’m sure that their practices wouldn’t appeal to you.
EDIT: Let me say also that I’ve said all I intended to in this thread. I’ll let you, Rainjack, have the last word.