[quote]KAS wrote:
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
[quote]KAS wrote:
It’s not that simple.
When you have a very small minority rulling over a very large majority, you need to have that “security and control apparatus” or you’d out of power pretty damn quick. Lets not forget how successfull Nats were.
The real question is whether democracy is the right thing for Africa. I don’t think it is. The results speak for themselves. In just 15 years the ANC has managed to undo most of what took 300 years to build. Why did everyone think SA would be any different from the rest of Africa?
In terms of oppression, the ANC are just as bad, if not worse, than the Nats. The only differnece being that the Nats where quite open about what they were trying to accomplish (it was official policy), while the ANC are using wide-spread crime and lawlessness to accomplish their goals.
Also don’t forget that the ANC is a Communist Terrorist organisation! If thats not evil then I don’t know what is. We’re also talking about Ministers and even Presidents who are rapists and murderers.
I don’t know who you have been talking to, but no one is better off under the ANC. I used to speak fluent Xhosa, which will earn you a lot more trust. Almost everyone Xhosa I’ve spoken to has said they were far better off under the Nats, yet they feel that they don’t have a choice other than to vote ANC. Most say that they placed too much value on “the vote” and didn’t think about the things they took for granted, such as jobs, low crime rate, etc.
What is interesting is the complete distrust they have for Mbeki and Zuma. I’ve been told many times that the Xhosa vote would change before Zuma could take power. So much for that!
Back to the point. I do see similarities between the white American and the Boer. Both groups are being undermined by the same types of people using the same tactics. Whats funny is that they use a completely opposite arguement in the States than is SA. In your part of the world it’s all about minority rihgts, yet in SA it’s majority rules regardless.
Democracy only works when people understand how governments work, especially existing ones. Unfortunately most people don’t take enough of an interest and think that everything the popular media says is gospel truth. [/quote]
Let’s get some things out in the open and then we can debate the topic at hand.Are you here?How old are you?That pertains to what exactly it is you remember or know about the Nats being in power other than the rose colored law and order spectacles,how things went down during the transition.
I for one agree with what PRCal said,I’m prepared to endure quite a lot of anarchy rather than have a domineering and controlling government as per the Nats.Let’s look at just one very relevant issue.Conscription.Were you a white boy of military age under the Nats?Property of the State?Or did you miss that boat?I was forcibly nationalized when I turned 18 because I was white foreign national permanent resident and adequate cannon fodder.The story was take on SA nationality and register for military service or leave within 24 hours.Never mind my family was here.That was in 1984.
So tell me your experiences with the Nats,and the things you saw growing up.As for talking to people,you’re right,you don’t know who I talk to,and I don’t know who you talk to.But suffice to say I’m more than comfortable in my knowledge that not one black person of an age old enough to remember the dompas,separate ‘amenities’,forced relocation,immorality act,the homelands or any other other Nat monstrosity,thinks they were better off under the Nats.That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.But nice try.
Are you perchance one of the locals that changes the way they speak when addressing a black person?You know what I mean,talking to them like they were retarded,changing your accent and using some of what you perceive to be their ‘colloquialisms’? Of course you will say no,and we will never know,but the “I used to speak a little Xhosa” comment and saying it gained you more trust is telling in this regard.I personally never had a problem engendering trust in people,merely by talking to them as equals,politely and being genuinely interested in what they have to say.
As for the morals or lack thereof of politicians,they are of an ilk,regardless of nationality,race or creed.That is a constant.Zuma is better for SA than Mbeki ever was,that’s for sure,and the ANC will govern here for a good few years.Not too many whites were complaining when they had cradle to grave job security guaranteed by the color of their skin,no matter how fucking moronic they were.They felt it their ‘birthright’.Now,of course,they whine like stuck pigs about affirmative action and B.E.E.Guess what,they were fucking useless before the change of regime,and they are fucking useless now.I have no time for them.
Will SA succeed?I don’t know,I think the inequalities that were brought about during the apartheid years may well be too big to overcome.The way the handover was structured also left too many things unchanged,and under those conditions the slide may just continue gently.But all the raging shit that some spout on here about ‘Evil living here blah blah blah’ is just the biggest crock of shit under sun.Don’t like it ?Leave.Don’t want to come here on holiday?Don’t.You think you know what you’re talking about?You don’t,but this is the internet and everyone’s an expert on everything,so carry on.
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You’re obviously a very angry man. Whats up with all the personal attacks? You are so blind to whats happening around you that you can’t even read properly. I never said that “I used to speak a little Xhosa”, I said that I used to speak it fluently. Big difference. I doubt that I could still speak it fluently because I haven’t had the opppertunity to use Xhosa over the last 5 years.
Anyone who speaks another language will attest to the fact that it does open the lines of communication, something you wouldn’t know unilt you took the time to learn their language.
As for talking to “blacks” in a condescending way. Why would you even say that? You don’t know me from a bar of soap. Just for the record, I was cared for by the same Xhosa lady from birth until I left home. I loved her like a mother. She is the one who taught me her language and raised me like one of her own. You just automaically assume that I’m some kind of racist because I don’t agree with everything you say. You have no right to do so.
Now to answer your actual question about experiences under the Nats.
I had a brother who was sent to war, came back, and was then in exile for 7 years for refusing to spy on his fellow university students.
My dad was sent to Dentention Barracks because of an administration error regarding one of his refresher camps.
Another family member was detained in a mental hospital for being gay.
I’m in no way saying that the Nats were all sunshine and roses, but we were better off under them than ANC.
Like you say, politicians are all of the same ilk. It’s a case of the lesser of two evils, and this is where we disagree. I don’t expect to change your mind on the internet, I’m just offering my take on a country I called home for 21 years of my life (which makes me a bit more than an internet expert).
Now how about some experiences under the ANC?
I was the victim of a violent home invasion.
I got hijacked (car-jacked).
Someone tried to kidnap my 6 month old son.
I had my house and car broken into 11 times in two years.
I was made redundant and replaced with two black guys (which cost 1.5 times what they were paying me) so the company wouldn’t get fined.
The 2500 hectare family farm that has been in the family since the 1870’s was taken away. 8 years later we still haven’t seen a cent of the agreed compensation. The land has been stripped bare and stands vacant. My uncle was approached by the government to run the farm for a wage.
My nanny was stabbed and thrown from a moving train (she died).
I had to shoot two human beings in self defence.
I had to re-apply for all my gun licences that I had held since I was 17. All were turned down because felf defence is not a valid reason for owning a gun in one of the most gangerous countries in the world.
If you think this is the lesser of two evils then you are sorely mistaken.
I do argee that it is better to put up with some anarchy than to be completely oppressed. Only problem is that we’ve crossed that line into genocide, and that is not worth any kind of “freedom”.
And no, South Africa will not succeed. It’s no different from the rest of the continent. I hope that you realise that before it’s too late.
Thanks for the advice, but I’m way ahead of you. I left that hell hole 5 years ago. And you bet your bottom dollar that most right thinking people don’t want to go there on holiday either.
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It is everyone’s right to move wherever they can to find what they think is the best life for them and their loved ones.I am a Spanish/EU citizen,have lived in the US,Canada,Spain and a couple of other places.So I know exactly how it’s like elsewhere,and I am very aware of what the realities of the situation here.I would be lying if I said leaving isn’t on my mind every now and then.I have the option and the capacity to go,so I’m not stuck here or blind to the situation in the least.
What we are discussing here is the situation on the ground,and whether the white man is being victimized here or ethnically cleansed or some such other dramatic issue.The answer to that is an unequivocal ‘no’.In real terms what surprises me here every single day is that we haven’t been MORE targeted for that kind of behavior.Of course there is going to be some incidence of that type of crime.What did people expect?That the brutalization of the locals here wasn’t going to result in some kind of manifestation of anger?That the unnaturally high lifestyle of the average white family here was going to just go on as before,and that there wasn’t going to be some move down towards the mean?That the frankly appalling state of the country at the time of the handover was just going to be magically swept away on a tide of ‘reconciliation’…that just never happened?If the Afrikaner here had been as warm hearted and inclusive as they now want their former subjects to be,I think things would probably be rather different.
It stuns me when people take their historical views from 94 onwards,have no idea of context,and more importantly have no interest in establishing context in their minds in order to understand things as they are.That of course doesn’t change how things are in the least.People need to eat,if they can’t eat they will steal and commit criminal acts,and here the vast majority of the well off are still white,and the skin color of white victims makes for titillating press reading and sells papers.The other oft neglected fact that the vast majority of crime here is committed on black victims doesn’t really get that much air time,but hey it isn’t as sexy for the headlines.What does that tell you?It tells me that the crime has its basis in grinding economic poverty within the black community.And this,whether one likes it or not,is a direct result of the policies that came before 94.