T Nation

South Africanization

I’ve given plenty of thought on whether the historic majority of the US awaits the same fate as the Boer in South Africa:

http://sareporter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1016&Itemid=60

Liberals constantly tell us, “Diversity is Strength!” Do they have any data supporting this idea at all? It sure doesn’t seem to be true of any of the extant collapsing multicultural “utopias” left over from last century.

Sure, we’ve kept a lid on ethnic strife during the past couple of decades, but the economy was growing then. What about now?

The Afrikaner is reaping what he sowed.Some have adapted,and some have not.Some of the conversations I have with average,everyday Afrikaners would chill your blood if you knew what the real feelings they harbored were.And they were just as condescending and domineering towards others of their same skin color that weren’t of their ‘tribe’.They were one of the most repressive,corrupt regimes of the 20th century.
The Afrikaner will be a footnote in history,and the individuals have got off lightly.I always find it rather amusing when they talk of ‘national healing’ and ‘protecting culture and language’.They weren’t quite so benevolent or open minded when the they were staring over the gun sights,rather than up the barrel.They have been given a more than fair treatment here.If they disappear,They won’t be missed.

I don’t see how that relates to the situation in the US though,or even if there is any parallel to be drawn.The Boer was never even close to being a majority,and had absolutely not one iota of goodwill from the those they oppressed to trade on.If they had been even 10% as inclusive of others as you are in the US,I guarantee their fate and position in the country would be vastly different right now.

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Afrikaner is reaping what he sowed.Some have adapted,and some have not.Some of the conversations I have with average,everyday Afrikaners would chill your blood if you knew what the real feelings they harbored were.And they were just as condescending and domineering towards others of their same skin color that weren’t of their ‘tribe’.They were one of the most repressive,corrupt regimes of the 20th century.
The Afrikaner will be a footnote in history,and the individuals have got off lightly.I always find it rather amusing when they talk of ‘national healing’ and ‘protecting culture and language’.They weren’t quite so benevolent or open minded when the they were staring over the gun sights,rather than up the barrel.They have been given a more than fair treatment here.If they disappear,They won’t be missed.

I don’t see how that relates to the situation in the US though,or even if there is any parallel to be drawn.The Boer was never even close to being a majority,and had absolutely not one iota of goodwill from the those they oppressed to trade on.If they had been even 10% as inclusive of others as you are in the US,I guarantee their fate and position in the country would be vastly different right now.

[/quote]

Is it a coincidence that South Africa is/was the most advanced and civilised country in Africa? When the natives take over, we get Zimbabwe or Uganda, where the dude turned his enemies into entrees.

The countries there should BEG the Europeans to come back and restore civilization.

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
I don’t see how that relates to the situation in the US though, [/quote]

The native Americans are now 1% of the population of the USA.

Relate that!

[quote]lixy wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
I don’t see how that relates to the situation in the US though, [/quote]

The native Americans are now 1% of the population of the USA.

Relate that![/quote]

That one was done and dusted a century ago.That’s not the context in which my comment was made,and well you know it.Disingenuous.Let’s weep for the Neanderthals as well,while we’re at it…they were properly wiped out.

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]lixy wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
I don’t see how that relates to the situation in the US though, [/quote]

The native Americans are now 1% of the population of the USA.

Relate that![/quote]

That one was done and dusted a century ago.That’s not the context in which my comment was made,and well you know it.Disingenuous.Let’s weep for the Neanderthals as well,while we’re at it…they were properly wiped out.[/quote]

If we’re going to compare the blacks in South Africa to anyone in the US, it should be to the natives.

[quote]lixy wrote:
]

If we’re going to compare the blacks in South Africa to anyone in the US, it should be to the natives.[/quote]

Nope. The “Native Americans” of South Africa were the Khoikhoi, jointly wiped out by Dutch and Xhosa (well, mostly Dutch)

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]lixy wrote:
]

If we’re going to compare the blacks in South Africa to anyone in the US, it should be to the natives.[/quote]

Nope. The “Native Americans” of South Africa were the Khoikhoi, jointly wiped out by Dutch and Xhosa (well, mostly Dutch)


[/quote]

The Khoikhoi got pushed all the way to SA by the Bantu. Google “Bantu expansion.”

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Afrikaner is reaping what he sowed.Some have adapted,and some have not.Some of the conversations I have with average,everyday Afrikaners would chill your blood if you knew what the real feelings they harbored were.And they were just as condescending and domineering towards others of their same skin color that weren’t of their ‘tribe’.They were one of the most repressive,corrupt regimes of the 20th century.
The Afrikaner will be a footnote in history,and the individuals have got off lightly.I always find it rather amusing when they talk of ‘national healing’ and ‘protecting culture and language’.They weren’t quite so benevolent or open minded when the they were staring over the gun sights,rather than up the barrel.They have been given a more than fair treatment here.If they disappear,They won’t be missed.

I don’t see how that relates to the situation in the US though,or even if there is any parallel to be drawn.The Boer was never even close to being a majority,and had absolutely not one iota of goodwill from the those they oppressed to trade on.If they had been even 10% as inclusive of others as you are in the US,I guarantee their fate and position in the country would be vastly different right now.

[/quote]

I think whites in this country have obviously been inclusive over the past 50 years or so. Most blacks will never agree with this statement. It’s something we will never see eye-to-eye on because there is too much at stake and too many sacred cows would be gored.

Obviously, I think the best policy a country can hope for is equal treatment of everyone under the law, without preferences or quotas of any kind. The alternative is ethnic squabbling over racial spoils. But we see a lot of that in the US despite our inclusiveness. I think it will increase as the US becomes poorer and our diversity increases. People vote their race in multi-ethnic empires like the US.

I can understand Boer dislike of the English, btw. The British loaded them into concentration camps during their war with the Boer.

.

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]lixy wrote:
]

If we’re going to compare the blacks in South Africa to anyone in the US, it should be to the natives.[/quote]

Nope. The “Native Americans” of South Africa were the Khoikhoi, jointly wiped out by Dutch and Xhosa (well, mostly Dutch)


[/quote]

They look black to me.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Afrikaner is reaping what he sowed.Some have adapted,and some have not.Some of the conversations I have with average,everyday Afrikaners would chill your blood if you knew what the real feelings they harbored were.And they were just as condescending and domineering towards others of their same skin color that weren’t of their ‘tribe’.They were one of the most repressive,corrupt regimes of the 20th century.
The Afrikaner will be a footnote in history,and the individuals have got off lightly.I always find it rather amusing when they talk of ‘national healing’ and ‘protecting culture and language’.They weren’t quite so benevolent or open minded when the they were staring over the gun sights,rather than up the barrel.They have been given a more than fair treatment here.If they disappear,They won’t be missed.

I don’t see how that relates to the situation in the US though,or even if there is any parallel to be drawn.The Boer was never even close to being a majority,and had absolutely not one iota of goodwill from the those they oppressed to trade on.If they had been even 10% as inclusive of others as you are in the US,I guarantee their fate and position in the country would be vastly different right now.

[/quote]

I think whites in this country have obviously been inclusive over the past 50 years or so. Most blacks will never agree with this statement. It’s something we will never see eye-to-eye on because there is too much at stake and too many sacred cows would be gored.

Obviously, I think the best policy a country can hope for is equal treatment of everyone under the law, without preferences or quotas of any kind. The alternative is ethnic squabbling over racial spoils. But we see a lot of that in the US despite our inclusiveness. I think it will increase as the US becomes poorer and our diversity increases. People vote their race in multi-ethnic empires like the US.

I can understand Boer dislike of the English, btw. The British loaded them into concentration camps during their war with the Boer.
[/quote]
The Boers(and many other nations)saw the English as treacherous warmongers of the highest order.So yes,I can understand their antipathy towards them as well.

I lived in the US for a couple of years way back in the late 80’s,and have been back to visit family many times(last time in '05).Obviously,the US is an enormously large country,so my experience of it is minimal in real terms.But as an outsider looking in,what I did see is that there are more things uniting the different groups there than there are wedges driving them apart.The power of American cultural hegemony is not to be underestimated.TV,Movies,music,the web,etc exert a massive cohesive force not just in the US,but world wid

While I fully agree that the porosity of your southern border is a massive problem,I think you are a long way from the kind of outcome you envision,as per the engulfing of the Boers,etc.Of course I don’t live or have ever been to where you live,so I may have a completely ass backward view of the reality on the ground.

But all in all I think the inclusive nature of the US and its inhabitants and legal/political structure will serve you well as a country in the future.The current period in its history may look a bit dire from the inside looking out,but in a fairly turbulent period of world history,I think you’re doing ok.

American culture is “pooped out” as John Derbyshire put it. It sucks.

It’s already happened to whites in California. Only 21% of public school children in CA are white. 56% are Mexican. I don’t find any evidence that Mexicans are about to steal our farms and start running us out, but it has happened through gangs and crime in areas that have gone Mexican. It’s nevertheless an ethnic cleansing of a softer sort.

I’m all for believing that the Boers reaped quite a bit of what they sowed, but I also think the ANC is as corrupt, stupid, and incompetent as any extant dictatorship. Apparently, all their talk about ending apartheid for peace was just a cynical ploy to put themselves in charge and start stealing from the Boer. I also don’t find any evidence that the non-Nigerian black South Africans are any better off now. Maybe I’m wrong though. I don’t live there.

BTW, the author of the piece I linked was an anti-apartheid crusader. I think that white liberals in the United States are going to experience a similar disillusionment once whites become a minority. Unlike white liberals in SA, though, they won’t have anywhere to emigrate.

[quote]lixy wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]lixy wrote:
]

If we’re going to compare the blacks in South Africa to anyone in the US, it should be to the natives.[/quote]

Nope. The “Native Americans” of South Africa were the Khoikhoi, jointly wiped out by Dutch and Xhosa (well, mostly Dutch)


[/quote]

They look black to me.[/quote]

SO you only see the color of skin?

That sounds racist to me :-)…-

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

American culture is “pooped out” as John Derbyshire put it. It sucks.

It’s already happened to whites in California. Only 21% of public school children in CA are white. 56% are Mexican. I don’t find any evidence that Mexicans are about to steal our farms and start running us out, but it has happened through gangs and crime in areas that have gone Mexican. It’s nevertheless an ethnic cleansing of a softer sort.

I’m all for believing that the Boers reaped quite a bit of what they sowed, but I also think the ANC is as corrupt, stupid, and incompetent as any extant dictatorship. Apparently, all their talk about ending apartheid for peace was just a cynical ploy to put themselves in charge and start stealing from the Boer. I also don’t find any evidence that the non-Nigerian black South Africans are any better off now. Maybe I’m wrong though. I don’t live there.

BTW, the author of the piece I linked was an anti-apartheid crusader. I think that white liberals in the United States are going to experience a similar disillusionment once whites become a minority. Unlike white liberals in SA, though, they won’t have anywhere to emigrate.

[/quote]

Yep,I know Breyten Breytenbach was an anti apartheid stalwart.He was required reading for all us anti apartheid whiteys.On a complete aside,his brother was responsible for founding the SADF special forces units,a.k.a Recces.That must have been one conflicted family.

As for whether the blacks are better off now,you would have to tell me what you consider to be ‘better off’. Are we talking financially only or more holistically?Let me put it this way:when the ANC were supposedly ‘given the keys’ to the country,the keys to the safe remained firmly in the same hands they were before.So while for all outward appearances the country had undergone a total transition,in reality,it had been more window dressing than anything else.But even in these last 15 years of window dressed change,my answer to the question would be that yes,they are much better off.As a human being,when you no longer have to skulk around in fear and cower purely because of the color of your skin,I consider that a vast improvement in one’s condition.And that is a sanitized version of how things were here for the black man.I can go into more detail if you want,but it’s no lie to say that they lived a life here full of degradation and devoid of dignity.

Are the ANC corrupt?Some of them are,to be sure.Do they feel now is their time?Of course.But for me they are far less corrupt than what came before.My family and I have first hand experience and knowledge of just how corrupt the previous regime was.The ANC are babes in the woods in comparison.That’s not to say they won’t be quick learners and surpass their former masters eventually.Time will tell.

I can also tell you that even as a white man here,we are now far freer than we were under the Nats.It was a fascist regime with a security and control apparatus of note.It’s been a palpable change.While now we may not be privileged because of our skin color,it would be absurd to deny that I,or my generation and the next,did not benefit from our skin color.Any white person of my generation who says otherwise,Afrikaner Scion Breytenbach included,is a fucking liar.It’s all the useless fucks that make the most noise about it,now that they have to be on an equal footing with those they looked down before.But there has already been a huge change in the way the younger generations relate to one another.For me and my generation,it’s a bit of an effort to relate and keep one’s drilled in prejudices in check,sometimes.My son’s(10)generation and on the other hand,have no such issues and hang ups.They all relate,interact mingle, and just generally get on with life without the same racial baggage.That makes me quite hopeful.

I don’t give a moments thought to ‘defending my culture’ or my traditions.Those are for me to instill into my children.I don’t feel at all threatened in that regard here.There are many other more pressing problems to worry about.And as for the ANC stealing from the Boer,don’t worry about it,the Boers accumulated more than enough when they were in theft mode and had their hand in the cookie jar.As the Spanish saying goes,he who steals from a thief will receive a pardon of a hundred years.

Apologies for the ramble…

This is very interesting to me.

I am personally extremely skeptical of any and all race-based organizations because they tend to exist for the profit of their apparatchiks. It’s like the NAACP - since the passing of WEB DuBois, they’ve done precious little for the benefit of their race. The whole black civil rights apparatus nowadays, IMO, is just a cynical collaboration of mulatto elites with self-loathing Jewish liberals (almost a redundant term) for the perpetuation of their own organizations. For example, we saw the latest collaboration between a liberal Jewish judge and ACORN to keep their sexual slavery business going. How this benefits the common black man is beyond me, but it certainly does keep ACORN’s pockets well-lined.

It sounds to me, from what you’re describing, like the apartheid regime was much the same. Personally, I’d take anarchy any day over a regime with “a security and control apparatus,” as you put it. I’d rather defend myself than have the state be my shepherd thankyouverymuch.

No worries. It was quite informative.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Bring back the Europeans. Problems will be solved.

It’s not that simple.

When you have a very small minority rulling over a very large majority, you need to have that “security and control apparatus” or you’d out of power pretty damn quick. Lets not forget how successfull Nats were.

The real question is whether democracy is the right thing for Africa. I don’t think it is. The results speak for themselves. In just 15 years the ANC has managed to undo most of what took 300 years to build. Why did everyone think SA would be any different from the rest of Africa?

In terms of oppression, the ANC are just as bad, if not worse, than the Nats. The only differnece being that the Nats where quite open about what they were trying to accomplish (it was official policy), while the ANC are using wide-spread crime and lawlessness to accomplish their goals.

Also don’t forget that the ANC is a Communist Terrorist organisation! If thats not evil then I don’t know what is. We’re also talking about Ministers and even Presidents who are rapists and murderers.

I don’t know who you have been talking to, but no one is better off under the ANC. I used to speak fluent Xhosa, which will earn you a lot more trust. Almost everyone Xhosa I’ve spoken to has said they were far better off under the Nats, yet they feel that they don’t have a choice other than to vote ANC. Most say that they placed too much value on “the vote” and didn’t think about the things they took for granted, such as jobs, low crime rate, etc.

What is interesting is the complete distrust they have for Mbeki and Zuma. I’ve been told many times that the Xhosa vote would change before Zuma could take power. So much for that!

Back to the point. I do see similarities between the white American and the Boer. Both groups are being undermined by the same types of people using the same tactics. Whats funny is that they use a completely opposite arguement in the States than is SA. In your part of the world it’s all about minority rihgts, yet in SA it’s majority rules regardless.

Democracy only works when people understand how governments work, especially existing ones. Unfortunately most people don’t take enough of an interest and think that everything the popular media says is gospel truth.

It seemed bizarre to me that an “anti-apartheid activist” like the author could somehow do a 180. It doesn’t jive with what Neuromancer has said.

It is pretty clear that SA is headed in the same direction as the rest of Africa. That makes sense. The majority is just heading in the same direction as the rest of its ethnicity on the continent of Africa (broadly speaking, the Bantus).

Right now, we’re trying an experiment of replacing a historic majority population in the US with another. I don’t see any reason to believe the US will change into anything but whatever characterizes the new majority.