All, I?m considering an eight-week bulking cycle of Sostenon 250 by itself along with Nolvadex to prevent gyno. That?s it; I?m keeping it simple. I train twice a week, heavy, low-rep sets, moderate volume. Endo bodytype, about 205 and 18% BF. Nutrition is in order. What do you think would be an adequate dosage for this cycle? Am I wasting my time if I only do two 250-milligram injections a week? Think I should step it up to three, or add Deca? If this has already been posted, apologies; please let me know where. Thanks.
This isn’t a bad plan, as it sounds to me that you are a beginner anyways. Just split your injects into 3 per week - you may have to preload your syringes for the week this way. This blend needs injecting at least every other day d/t the fact that half of it is compost of short acting esters. You need to keep steady blood levels of the hormone in order to give yourself the best opportunity for growth, and to reduce the chance of side effects that come with fluctuating hormone levels
this sounds like it would be your first cycle…keeping it simple is a good choice in most cases.
why are you training only twice a week? what are your workouts like? they must be total body.
sust is best administered EOD to take advantage of the short esters. personally, i’d frontload a gram week one and then dose at 500mg/week from there on. i’d start the nolva @ 10 mg EOD and adjust the dosage if you get sides.
what does your PCT look like? give us some more info, or you are just gonna get the obligatory “do more research” response…which i was tempted to use.
Why use an anti-estrogen at all? Do you really think it’s necessary at 250 mg/week? You’ll probably make better gains without it. If you notice any sides, then start with an anti-e.
I have noticed almost everyone includes anti-estrogens regardless. Don’t you think most people can do without, say up to maybe 500 mg/week of Test. I know that is unanswerable as everyone is different, but in general.
[quote]DadeCounty wrote:
Why use an anti-estrogen at all? Do you really think it’s necessary at 250 mg/week? You’ll probably make better gains without it. If you notice any sides, then start with an anti-e.
I have noticed almost everyone includes anti-estrogens regardless. Don’t you think most people can do without, say up to maybe 500 mg/week of Test. I know that is unanswerable as everyone is different, but in general.[/quote]
he’s planning on 500 mg/week. everyone is different, but why keep something “on hand” and wait to see sides, when you can prevent or lessen them immediately. anti-e’s really don’t “reduce gains”, unless of course you count water weight as gains. i’m not really gyno prone and can run a decent amount of test without any anti-e’s…but i always run a small dose just in case.
I guess because I’ve seen from numerous sources that anti-e’s can limit gains to a degree. Also, if it’s a mass cycle, why worry about a little fat or water as they only help to support muscle gains anyway. If you do notice symptoms of gyno and start an anti-e immediately, especially at that dose, you should still be fine. What I’m trying to say is if you could run 500 mg/week of test without an anti-e and get the same results as running 750mg/week with one, what’s the point?
I guess if you don’t believe anti-e’s limit gains, then all of this really dosen’t matter.
[quote]DadeCounty wrote:
I guess if you don’t believe anti-e’s limit gains, then all of this really dosen’t matter.[/quote]
it doesn’t matter. water weight is not “gains”.
type in “nolvadex myth” into the search engine…long story short, another example of misinterpreting studies combined with faulty logic leading to the belief that nolva hinders gains. i’ll take bill roberts’ word for it.
[quote]DadeCounty wrote:
I guess because I’ve seen from numerous sources that anti-e’s can limit gains to a degree. Also, if it’s a mass cycle, why worry about a little fat or water as they only help to support muscle gains anyway. If you do notice symptoms of gyno and start an anti-e immediately, especially at that dose, you should still be fine. What I’m trying to say is if you could run 500 mg/week of test without an anti-e and get the same results as running 750mg/week with one, what’s the point?
I guess if you don’t believe anti-e’s limit gains, then all of this really dosen’t matter.[/quote]
Show me where there is any proof that anti-e’s will lower the effectiveness of Test by 33% and I’ll stop using anti-e’s tonight.
I think you are making a huge assumption. Even if they do limit gains marginally - this is his first cycle. I would rather see decent gains and no gyno by using anti-e’s than to spoil an entire cycle by taking a chance and getting a nice set of man boobs.
Just my 2 cents
There’s an interesting article by William Llewellyn in the August 2005 Issue of Muscular Develpoment that explains how anti-e’s do hinder cycles. Also, why take an an anti-e if you don’t have symptoms? Anti-E’s have side effects too. Guess it’s just what you believe. Never really cared for Bill Roberts myself.
you can’t just lump “anti-e’s” into one category.
SERMS like nolva do not hinder free flowing estrogen, they just block it from binding to the ER. AI’s are a different creature, and they would possibly hinder gains to some degree…the original poster has chosen nolva…a SERM.
why on earth would you chance the possibility of growing a set of tits for a pound or two of water and/or fat? i’d rather gain 17-18 pounds on a cycle and be estrogen side effect free, than gain 20 pounds sporting a c-cup and being a bloatbag.
gyno susceptibility is different from individual to individual. some guys can go without anti-e’s and be ok, some get sore nips just from looking at a bottle of aromitizable AAS. if you wait till symptoms appear there is absolutely no garauntee that running some nolva or any other anti-e will reverse or halt the process. plus, running an anti-e does help the post cycle recovery process. its called being proactive…
this debate will go on forever as there are truly no definitive answers at this time. and there are too many schools of thought on this subject. IMO, SERMS do not reduce gains, they only keep the bloat off…AI’s may reduce gains to a slight degree.
however, bottom line:
even if there was a possibility of some hindering of gains while using anti-e’s… the benifits of their use outweighs not using them.
like to hear some of the other vets chime in.
First to the original poster take P22 advise on the cycle and think about running some letro or nolva just to be the safe side.
Now for the debate…I would think anti-e’s like nolva would be more likely to cause a possible loss of gains because, nolva is a super weak estrogen in of itself and would fight for the same receptors as the test. Where as an anti-aromatose, like letrozole, only lessons test conversion to estrogen, so it takes up no valuable receptor sites that should go to the prescious test we inject ourselves with.( Now please understand that this is just my opinion and I surely have been wrong about many things in my life. As always, please feel free to correct any miss information I give on this board.)
Lift and learn
It really is an unanswerable question, because, as is the case with the entire field, good reasearch is basically non-existent. I guess that what makes discussions like these beneficial.
i think you have it a lil’ backwards DA…
SERMS (selective estrogen receptor modulator)like nolva and clomid block SPECIFIC receptor sites. nolva’s selective nature binds it to breast, bone, and liver ERs… and to a lesser degree pituitary and hypothalmus.
while clomid is selective towards hypothalamus & pituitary …and breast tissue to a lesser degree. so SERMS do not interfere with the benefits of equally elevated estrogen to testosterone.
AI’s (Aromatase inhibitors) like a-dex and letro exhibit a very different mechanism of action than SERM?s. Aromatase inhibitors prevent the conversion of androgens into estrogen in fat, muscle, breast, and brain. so AI’s will slightly lower systemic estrogen…and theorectically MAY reduce gains to a slight degree.
seems like simple logic that SERMS will lessen water and bloat while protecting you from gyno, but not reducing muscle gains because they only block certain sites, not systemic estrogen. AI’s will do the same while POSSIBLY reducing muscle gains by restricting systemic estrogen.
at least this is my understanding.
[quote]DadeCounty wrote:
Why use an anti-estrogen at all? Do you really think it’s necessary at 250 mg/week? You’ll probably make better gains without it. If you notice any sides, then start with an anti-e.
I have noticed almost everyone includes anti-estrogens regardless. Don’t you think most people can do without, say up to maybe 500 mg/week of Test. I know that is unanswerable as everyone is different, but in general.[/quote]
Thicker people are more prone to gyno !
Guys,
Thanks to all of you for your comments. I hadn’t had a chance to get online for a few days, so I apologize for the lack of response so far. Please let me read what y’all have written so far, and I will get back to you as soon as possible with answers to your questions and more questions of my own.
Miguel
Okay, answers below.
Prisoner: Yes, drugwise, I am a beginner. This blend is best administered every other day; understood. I will try and up my dosage to three injections per week. Please note that I am already two weeks into the cycle. (My initial post had been written some time before but I had not posted it.)
The first week I injected in my left rear delt and my right triceps. Next morning, yeeow. Swelling, reddening, extremely intense triceps pain for two days afterward, using my right arm to operate my computer mouse was an exercise in willpower. Week two I switched to glutes, zero problems. Going up to three shots a week, I will stay with the glutes and away from the shoulders, or perhaps injecting one-half of the dose in one delt, then the rest on the other side.
Juice: I train twice a week because of time constraints. I prefer 3-4 a week, but right now its not feasible. Sessions are full-body, mostly three six-rep sets per movement, alternating movements, one for each bodypart. I like to use single progression and I train for strength.
Your suggestion to start with a gram and then go with 500mg for the rest of the cycle is a good one. Nolvadex at 10mg every other day and see how that goes, roger that. Excuse me, what is a PCT?
More info: Dont know if this helps, but I take in 3300 cals a day, 200 grams protein, 6-8 meals, cardio twice a week, I weigh 207 now, and I plan to end the cycle at 220. Currently arms 16, forearms 13, chest 50, waist 38, thighs 25, calves 17.
300lbs. for seated calf raises, 190 for good mornings, 365 for squats, 835 for leg presses, Cybex machine stack plus 50 for abs, 180 for cable rows, bodyweight for chins, BW+15 for dips, 145 for standing militaries, 185 for bench presses, 100 for barbell curls, 180 for pushdowns, deadlift single 405. I like sunsets and riding on horseback at the beach.
Bloodwork looked great last time while on my regular meat/fat diet but I have to get tested again while I am taking in carbs.
Dade: I have not started using the Nolvadex, but like Juice says, I plan to keep a box handy to start on it the second my nipples feel funny. Better safe than sorry.
Rainjack: I hear you. Thanks.
Darkangel: Okay, the advice given by Prisoner22 is sound in your opinion.
Anavar: you mention that thicker people are more prone to gyno. Yep, I get fat real easy. It makes sense that I would be prone to fat accumulation under the nipples. My natural test is low (which I understand is common for serious lifters anyway), but I have yet to find out what my thyroid and estrogen levels are.
Another question: Should I shoot up before training, after training, or anytime, any day?
Miguel
ok after reading your post i see that you feel you are probably gyno prone…10 mg EOD of nolva is on the low side, but that is where i would start immediately. if you experience sides, bump the dosage up.
PCT is post cycle therapy…you should never start a cycle without having a PCT plan and the proper ancillary drugs in your posession (clomid, nolvadex etc). research a little and come up with a pct plan, then get back to us.
Juice,
You are right. It was stupid of me to start without having planned what to do at the end of the cycle. I had vaguely thought I’d use Carbolin 19 and Clomid, but I confess I have not mapped it out in detail, regarding dosages, duration, etc. Will get back to you on that. PS - That is the best avatar ever. Well, it ties with SouthernGirl’s as best.
Mmmmm… SouthernGirl. (Drooling.)
Miguel
if you are having injection problems i’d stick to hitting your glutes and quads. a little trick i STOLE from rainjack is using a heating pad to warm up your syringe pre-injection. i find that the heated oil combined with injecting slowly and making sure you massage the area after injecting equals no injection pain, and i always have zero soreness the next day.
Juice,
Thanks for passing on Rainjack’s tip. I actually keep the stuff in the fridge, as it gets really hot in here, 105-110F every day. I understand that some compounds are harmed by intense heat, so I wanted to be on the safe side. I have never injected in my quads, can you suggest a specific place in the thighs that is safe?
Miguel