T Nation

Sonnen - Shogun


I guess no one cares about this one.

I'd say it said more about Shogun being past his prime than Sonnen being that good. Although I also thought Stann had a shot, so it may be that I'm just not a Sonnen fan.


Personally I think Sonnen should move over to standup comedy. I would pay to watch that. He is no pussy but I just don't care to watch him fight. His personality is entertaining but it would be over the top if he was able to go in there and really put a beating on somebody.


The card was good, although the big fights were fairly predictable.

Like the average MMA fan, I was always a fan of Rua, I mean whats not to like about an aggressive thai berserker?
But it seemed very clear that the deck was stacked against him.
The best lay n pray wrestler, an intelligent guy who is in his mental, physical (thanks to no big cut) and chemical (aehm) prime?

(I should also add "business prime" - could another fighter get an exclusive arrangement of hand picked opponents like Chael? )

For Shogun, that was ronin-kriptonite.

As for Overeem, they should cut him some slack and rebuild him -he's too valuable.
Give him Mir, Vera, Big Country, Rothwell, someone from the lower half of the heavies' roster.
That should work.


I love to watch Chael fight because he makes me good money on wagers. Unless your name is Jon Jones or you are well above 205 he will take you down, and when someone can beat just about everyone by takedowns and top control I can take my time and watch. He just keeps on pushing and pushing and no matter if the opponent is superior on the feet or what ever he won't give you a break to impose your game at will and thats something I think a lot of people can learn from.

That being said Shogun is probably my all time favorite fighter and even though I could see a pretty lopsided win going Sonnen's way I sure as hell didn't see it comeing by the way of 1st round submission. I know Shogun would still like to fight for the title one day but as long as he insists on fighting I'd like to see UFC cash in by having him fight some fun fights with other declining fighters, I think him vs. Wand would be great stuff to headline some minor Brazil event or booking the planned diet-Nog fight again.

I would've really liked to see what kind of improvements he has made to his striking working with Roach, at least Freddie seems to believe he has added some significant power to his punches and if he has learned to use a jab that'd be awesome. Hard to tell if an old dog will learn new tricks at this point but it would've been awesome to see.

As for Sonnen I like him as a commentator/analyst, I'm sure I'd like him as a standup comedian, if he wants to beat up Wanderlei next then what the hell, just seems like a very pointless fight to make since I'm having hard time seeing Wand beating him unless he brings a gun to the cage. Fights against Machida and Vitor @185 would've been pretty interesting, even though he has fallen short 4 times in title bouts during his carrier and I can see why people don't want him challenging for that belt ever again I don't see how they can keep him from the title fight if he picks up couple of solid top 10 wins.

Don't know if the third time would be the charm against Ando (maybe if his age will catch up with him sooner than it does with Chael) or how he'd stack up against Weidman but I'd still pay to see it.

I'm feeling really sad for the way things seem to be working with Reem. I was really pumped to see him steamroll his way in to titleshot but in his last two fights he just seems to find a way to lose... First the stupidy against Bigfoot after 10+ minutes of absolute domination and now blowing your gastank faster than Carwin (and with less effort too) and then just standing there eating the same front kick in the face...

Sad and frustrating for a fan to watch, probably even more so when he realises what the fuck just happend. I agree with Schwarz on his next fight, although I'd be a bit vary of booking him against Nelson having seen the way he fights these days.

Nelson will just eat his shots for 5 minutes and then stagger forward throwing that overhand right and I'm not really convinced Reem won't get lazy somewhere along the way and take it square on the face and I don't think UFC really cares to fill Nelson's record with big name wins. Mir, Vera n Rothwell are all fights he should win handily if UFC is where he is going to stay, if he manages to lose any of those he should just go back to Japan...


There's lot of background talk....especially from Shogun's brother...that he just doesn't have the right people around him anymore. Ninja Rua has said that Shogun is pretty much his own coach now. Pretty sad if that's the case.


I know theres a lot of old school shogun fans here

but I have to say

he hasn't looked good in a long time. Even his win over machida was basically a brawler catching a counter fighter being lazy/ "admiring his work" syndrome. I think he's shot tbh, he always looks drained and tired, is up and down with his conditioning and his technique has degraded dramatically.

He's still dangerous for guys like Vera, but the big dogs of the division are just going to use him to pad their record. Call me a pessimistic cunt, but I think thats when you need to retire unless you have serious money concerns.


I don't think Shogun has ever had strong showings against wrestlers. Coleman, even way spent back in UFC Coleman, gave him fits. Add injuries and I expected this to happen. I think Schwarfarher called it correct about how this was picked.

Sonnen smack talking Rogan was funny.

I am really starting to get self doubt over Ubereem. Didn't he win K-1? Big Foot and Brown aren't K-1 level are they? Are they?


Robert A


I guess it shows how K-1 level striking(which he is a bull while on offense) is also different from DEFENDING without those big ounces gloves.


Reem is done. That was a fucking shocker to see him lose twice in a row. But knowing Dana White, I won't be surprised if he's given one last chance to prove himself. Oh, and he needs to lose some fucking weight. He's been looking all soft and squishy lately.

My man Sonnen performed beautifully. I felt bad for Shogun though. I love both fighters, so it was hard for me to see either of them lose.

I guess, considering his relatively long career in MMA and the absolutely brutal training regime he has endured, the sad reality is, Rua is now spent.


The majority of UFC heavyweights look way softer than Alistair.

To be honest I don't even know how Browne survived those brutal bodyshots in the first 2,5 mminutes.
Overeem had him curled up, trapped against the cage and was seconds away from finishing him.
Travis is simply one tough motherfucker and you got to give him mad respect for that.
I mean can you imagine how it feels to get a knee in the stomach from a 260 pound K1 Champion?
Damn, even thinking about that makes me cringe a little.


Yeah, K1 is different than MMA standup.
Pace, rhythm, the everpresent thread of a takedown or clinch.
Kaisermetal has it right, the padding is one serious part of the equation.
But then the KO being a front kick was bizarre.

Still doesn't mean he has not everything in his arsenal to beat Browne's and Bigfoot's ass.

But Reem has a problem: he has not an awesome coach like Browne.
And he needs to get his strategic holes fixed.

On first glance his style is simple as foolproof:

Stalk aggressivly, then either punch/kick with bad intentions, initiate clinch and apply knees from hell.
He was ok, later even very decent on the ground with an above average sprawl.

That made him pretty cool to watch. I was an Overeem fan since I saw him in 2H2H.
His style was rather wild back then: A haymakerin, clinchin pitbull.
Against serious, more refined contenders, that was his biggest minus. Lack of control.
Once they figured him out and weathered the wild clinch storm Alistair was losing.

K1 fighting remade him into Ubereem: he was now patient and powerful with great countering ability.
However the price was the slowly forward plodding Overeem we (again) saw vs Browne.

The new heavies are often light on their feet. Browne, the two champions, Todd "the white dreem " Duffee (whom Overeem beautifully destroyed btw his best MMA Ubereem performance), Mittrione etc
Against these,Thai/K1 footwork @ ~270lbs is often at a stylistic disadvantage in MMA.
Squirly MMA tactics and setups can make it very hard to land these spectacular counterhooks of his.

Overeem, too, felt this way, so he experimented with styles.
During most of his fights, he employed an extremely low stance while being the aggressor. Good vs takedowns and for initiating the clinch, A.'s bread and butter move. However, once on the defense, he falls apart.
His Ubereem tranformation modified this style into what we saw in his last Japan bouts. Great if the other one is coming for you (Duffee). Not so great if the opponent won't come out to play (Werdum).
Versus Bigfoot, used the "lean back to go out" style. Clearly, he tried to exert more control of the fight with more fluidity of the feet.
Versus Browne, he reused his default Ubereem thai stance.

That is not just simple gameplanning. That's quite a difference between two fights.

Now throw in Alistair's tendency to blow his wad too soon and you have a recipe for underachieving.

Greg Jackson, halp!


Adding all that, what would be the solution for "The Reem 2013" ?

  • Go back to GG

  • Have more composure and patience, not blowing his wad

  • Do not fall in love with his striking and mix his game even more.

I really don't know, in paper, he have all the tools to be the champion, i cringe everytime someone says that he have a "weak chin" because everybody has a weak chin against a HW punch.

Give him Vera on his next fight? LOL i'm really at a loss here.


Resurrectio Filum Pugilistica!

So I thought I'd bump up this old shitheap to talk about...

1) Big Ben vs Leanerreem

& 2), the main event, Mousasi vs Jacare

Never would I have dreamed the sneering gods of brutality would grant my wish to have Jackson's take care of Reem.
What a twist!

But it happened and they leaned him out quite a bit.

Why did they do that?
And what have they done with Alistair's style & arsenal?!
Is it even possible to remold this aggressive behemoth into the another Jackson Wrestlemunculus?

I cant wait to find out!

Jacare knows he can probably go straight for the title if he crushes Mousasi.
But this other fomer kickbox-monster in tonights double Dutch feature has exactly what it takes to clamp the Alligator's snout.

A rare BJJ reptile, Jacare fares extremely well against MMA Wrestlers, due to his savage physicality and creative mind.
UFC & Strikeforce kept him on a steady diet of those.
And so the quick hands and feet of Luke Rockhold handed him his only defeat - apart from the other loss, the one versus Mousasi!

So what will happen?

Jacare will try to wrestle and create scrambles. Hes great at that.
While his opponent is no slouch on the ground, Jacare will only fake interest in an occasional exchange.

Mousasi will do what he always does, stalk and advance slowly.
Will his calm, practically tranquil demeaner prevail?
Will he be able to use his division-peerless jab?
Will his counterwrestling suffice?

I totally don't know, that's what make it so interesting.

Im pumped , because I like these guys who are not the usual wrestler-punchers or BJJ-thaiboxers.

Does anybody know where Gegard trains?


This did not work out so well....


Overeem should have never left GG, his boxing and defense have not been the same.

Slimmed down overeem is a poor idea too. He's done


Don't disagree, but Golden Glory might have tried to diet him down as well.

They did that to Heath Herring.

There may be a lesson about not trying to completely change an already established, 30 plus year old fighter.


Robert A


At least he had the best p4p oblique kick..

Back to the drawing board, Mr. Jackson.
Seriously, fix his holes!


1st Where the hell were you guys? I haven't seen either of these screen names around here for a while.

2nd I re watched the Reem vs Rothwell fight and I want to know who decided Reem should fight with his hands down like a low budget Roy Jones? Because that shit needs to go. If I remember his K-1 march to domination to correctly he stalked with a high guard. What the hell Jackson?

I am as confused about that as the idea of trying to lean down Shane Carwin and teach him to kick instead of just trying to support his power punching and wrestling.


Robert A


Nothing good/new ever gets discussed on these forums anymore (and im not referring to all the dramatic BS that used to happen) so i havent bothered to post much.

Anyway, i dont think Greg Jackson's camp is all its cracked up to be. This isnt the first time theyve seemingly ruined a promising fighter, and the truly talented/gifted athletic specimens that they do get, they turn into point fighters.

Jones is still a better finisher and funner to watch than GSP, but he's definitely gotten away from some of his strengths and been very conservative in fights where he didnt need to be.

Also, his wrestling has suffered, the Jones that ran for the title against Shogun had better TDD and much more dynamic takedown setups than the Jones we've seen since the Rampage fight. If a fight against Rumble materializes this could be big trouble for JJ.

On a similar note, steroids make MMA so much more awesome. Just look at how fun Overeem and Belfort were to watch when they were juicing.


There has been less talk about fights/MMA/boxing of late. Is that what you mean?

I think DC is a bigger threat than Johnson. After watching what he did to Barnett, I could see him handling the clinches where Jones has always been safe. I think that has the potential to unsettle John Jones even more than dealing with Gustofson's height.

I am torn.

I didn't like the "No Roids, Plenty of TRT" stance, but a lot of fighters have lost their sheen.

Wand and Reem are two that come to mind. Belfort is an example, but he was never consistent enough for me to blame it all on that.


Robert A