T Nation

Something More Than TRT

Hello guys !

Soz for the long read in advance :smiley:

I am 25, lifting for 8 years, no previous exp with AS.

I am planning on doing 200-300mg/w of test prop. I want to inject EOD. With that i want to use 500iu/w hcg + some AI. I am choosing propionate because i have low SHGB and i have read that frequent injections would be better + I want to have as stable tst levels as possible due to lower side effects and better ‘‘feel’’.

I want to do this for the rest of my life and i might do some blasts eventually. I want to use the lowest possible dose which would keep my levels mildly supraphysiological notjing extreme so that the sides are very mild to none. I plan to check my hematocrit and if it gets out of control i would donate blood. Same goes for yearly prostate exams. I will be checking my cholesterol levels too, is there anything else i should be monitoring ?

I want to do this because i have low t and i also have low t symptoms. My main goal is to feel the best - better sleep,sex drive, erections, less anxiety and all that good stuff that test brings to the table. Building muscle would be more like a good side effect of this rather than my goal.

I might be adding proviron 25mg ED for better libido/erections but that would be later on when i figure how iI do on test only. What do you think about that ?

My questions:

1.How long after first injection should i wait and do blood work ? I was thinking like 1 month ?
2.How do i know that my HCG dose is right ? Only by checking my ball size and if they do not shrink I would be fine ?
Next, I have seen someone injecting HCG and Test in one injection IM. Would this be ok to do to reduce the amount of injection ? Can i inject them together ?
3.Which AI would you recommend me? Aromasin or arimedex ? I have read that Aromasin further reduces the SHGB hormone and i already have low SHGB levels so adex might be a better go ?
Doses i wanted to do would be : 12.5mg of Aromasin ED or arimedex: 0.125 mg EOD - would this be correct dosage or is it too much/low ?(These are just the starting doses, i will be adjusting according to how i feel and blood work ofc.)

Thank you all for any advice or input :slight_smile:

  1. Six weeks.
  2. By right I assume you mean to maintain fertility. Split up your dosing, 250-300IU two or three times a week will do it. You can inject with test.
  3. Not sure I would start with an AI until you have symptoms or at least follow-up blood work. Many don’t need one. However, do you have any labs now? If so, what is your E2 level? Any previous history of gyno, are you overweight, etc.?
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I think you would get more stable levels with Test E or C. You could still inject EOD, to get less peaks and valleys.

Arimidix is preferable to Aromasin, but use should be based on blood work.

You need to spend some time on the TRT forums and learn about all the bad side effects of being on T injections all the time. I don’t want to discourage you but what you want to do is dam near impossible. We’d all love to run >1500 TT but our bodies hate those levels and the side effects continue to escalate until you pretty much have to stop injecting.

My advice for long term use is to keep it at 200 mg per week or less. Starting out I would say less. Maybe even 100 mg a week and allow that to stabilize for 6 weeks. Pull bloodwork at 6 weeks then assess from there.

That will get old very, very quickly my friend. If you want to start your own trt protocol then you should really consider a longer ester like enanthate or cypionate. Prop is notorious for PIP, and that alone could be enough of an issue to make it a miserable endeavor.

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Yes i want to remain fertile. Like i wrote - I want to start with 500IUs per week, i keep reading that this should be enough or is it not ? I will be spliting the dose ofc.

Yeh i wanted to start w/o AI at first but my last lab tests indicate that my E2 is higher than normal not sure why, not byt a lot but slightly, this was not sensitive test tho, here where I live there is no lab that would test for sensitive, all of them just do the main ‘‘female’’ one.

I have a history of gyno from taking finasteride for hair loss but that has been reversed and i am no longer on the medication. I would think that i am going to aromatize a lot because of this fact but i could be wrong because test is a completely different drug than that hairloss pill.

Not overwight, I am 6’5’’ about 250 lbs with about 13-15bf% mostly clean diet and a lot of exercise

I might do test E or C but i keep reading that the propionate is best but hurts more

I am at 350 TT and i dont want to be at more than 1500, I would say i am looking to get to around 1200 which would be higher than the ref. range but not extreme high

I will probably start with 150

Yeh i might do E or C for pain reduction and I also might try injecting every 3.5 days instead of EOD

“I want to start with 500IUs per week, i keep reading that this should be enough or is it not ?”

Right, anything from 250IU twice a week to 300IU three times a week has been used with success. If it is me, I’m doing 250 three times a week or 350 twice. You can use testicular size as a guide, if they are not atrophying, you’re good.

“this was not sensitive test tho, here where I live there is no lab that would test for sensitive, all of them just do the main ‘‘female’’ one.”

No big deal. Rarely is the difference between the two clinically significant. As always, go with how you are feeling regarding E2 management. Below is a link to a thread which shows examples of both tests run concurrently. Check E2, monitor it, and if you are not sure if any symptoms you may have are due to E2, check your blood and see if it has changed from baseline.

Good luck.

that is very valuable info regarding those E2 tests, thanks for the link to the thread !

I decided that i will start with E3.5D injections and see how i feel on those. I will most likely use Sustanon as that is the only Pharmacy grade test that i can get here or i have to go with underground gear which i don’t feel like experimenting with.

I am not sure on the dosing just yet, might aswell do 125mg x 2 per week.

I was thinking doing test only and then after 6 weeks pull labs to see what that is doing with my body.

If E2 is high i will introduce AI. Then after another 6 weeks new labs. After that i would introduce HCG into my protocol. this would let me understand what is doing what so i can adjust accordingly.

My question is, can i add that HCG that much later on ? My goal is to stay fertile but I am not looking to concieve anytime soon but i keep reading that young males should incorporate HCG with test at the same time. Will I be ok if i introduce HCG later on ? or should I do it right away ?

I would hold off on that if I did not have high E2 symptoms. Even then, I would drop the Sustanon dose a bit before taking an AI.

You can wait. Guys typically start using hCG about 2-3 months prior to trying to conceive. If I were you, I’d take hCG for about six weeks, twice a year, spaced out obviously, i.e. use it for six weeks starting January and six weeks starting July.

Full time if trying to conceive.

Proviron lowers SHBG

Is it ok to have high E2 levels even if one does not have symptoms ? wouldn’t this cause an issue long term ? Say i feel good with elevated E2 on paper, I am good to go without AI for years ?

Hmm basic protocol on this site recommends to run HCG all the time, if I do it just twice a year, aren’t my boys gonna shrink down there ?

Thing is that many report mood changes (positive) after adding HCG. It also improves libido from what i have heard which I am heavily after. It is also needed for production of Pregnenolone which is an important hormone as far as i know.

I am not that worried about ball size but the other stuff concerns me.

I am aware of that, as all DHT derivatives does, I might not even add that to my protocol tho depending on how i feel on just test alone, we will see

Yes, they will. If you want to maintain fertility, stay on it indefinitely. If you want to maintain testicular size, stay on it. If you are not trying to conceive immediately, you can wait. Using it periodically will make it quicker and easier to conceive when you decide to do so.

Increasing testosterone does that. HCG increases test. The reasons for using hCG are two, fertility and testicular size. If those are not issues you will do fine with TRT. It is my opinion that TRT clinics using a cookie cutter approach in which everyone gets test, anastrozole and hCG are simply selling you more than you may need. The downside of hCG with test, aside for the cost, is increasing E2.

Yes, no and yes.