T Nation

Something isn't Right...


#1

Ok, this might be a long post so bear with me. I'll try to make this as short as possible.

Anyways...ok so I took 6 months away from drugs, reached 285 pounds and hit some new levels of strength that I had never before. Bench press 430x3 and front squat 370x5 among some other things. After having this long period of time off I decided to get back on something and opted for a test/tren/dbol cycle.

I began the cycle and about 1 1/2 weeks in I had to do a crazy work week, nine 12 hour shifts in a row with only 1-2 meals per day (literally no breaks). After this I came out at around 279 pounds and obviously my strength had decreased some. Well now almost 4 weeks later, working with 1g/week of test as well as being on day 3 of my tren/dbol portion I'm only back up to 281 or so and my numbers are sucking balls. Using the same example bench is 405x5 and front squat is 315x5, I am also plateauing like a mother fucker. I don't see how this is possible considering the amount of drugs I am using? Just doesn't seem right.

Couple things:

1) Source was suggested to me by a vet here so I highly doubt my product is bad, not to mention when it didn't arrive on time source resent with nothing but my word, and everything looks like it should.
2) I am eating the same amount of food that I was when I reached 285 and was still gaining.
3) Suffering a little depression at the moment, having some pretty serious nerve/muscle issues that I will be getting professional help for starting next week
4) Maybe added stress from school is a problem?

Bottom line is, I feel like I am wasting a time were I should be getting some massive growth and I have no idea what I am doing wrong. If anyone has any suggestions I am all ears, maybe I just need a day off? I don't know. I just don't see how it is possible to stagnate when on a dose of that size and eating plenty of food. (I will immediately increase calories now though)

I just feel like I've lost my mojo and am having a ton of trouble getting my aggression, intensity and killer instinct back to were it needs to be.

Thanks guys.


#2

Sorry to hear about your troubles Way. It may be obvious questions but sometimes its the obvious that has to be mentioned.

What does your workout split look like?
How many days of rest are you getting?
How much sleep are you getting a night?

I know school can hinder my gains due to stress and lack of sleep due to my studies. Last fall, I was sleep deprived and ‘on’ and strained a muscle in my lower back because of it. I took a week and a half off from training (stayed on cycle tho) and came back and had a very productive fall, made some personal bests in strength and size. That week off, I slept probably 12 hours a day, which I know my body needed. I also cut my workouts to 5 days a week instead, which helped out with recovery.

I know I am guilty of relying on gear to make up for my lack of sleep and rest. It is a major downfall for a bodybuilder to do this, which I have had to learn the hardway many times. I believe the priorities should be arranged as follows: 1) Diet 2)Rest 3)Training 4)‘Supplements’

I was excited about hearing about a productive cycle and new levels of growth for you, which I am sure everything will get back to ‘business as usual’ when you find the problem.

Goodluck Way.


#3

Many of those symptoms could be due to your E level’s. You are an experienced user/frequent to these boards so I assume you are using adex. Have you tried upping your adex dose?

As for you lack of strength and weight gain I am at a loss. For the info you provided we can I can only guess it is due to lack of sleep and just being overworked.


#4

It’s a 3 way split, run continuously until I feel I need an offday.

M-chest/tri/calves
T-back/bi’s
W-shoulders/legs/calves

and repeat.

I’m probably only getting 7 hours of sleep a night instead of 8-9 as usual, and I haven’t taken a day off since I did that work week. Maybe I just really need a day off, I just despise taking them when on cycle.

Thanks for the post man.


#5

The depression makes it sound (to me) like it is something wrong with the drugs. Have you ever had any depression problems before?

I’m in college too, I know how stressful it can get, but I’ve never gotten to the point where I would call my self depressed. (Not trying to sound like this is a ‘my dicks bigger’ argument, just trying to relate.)

I hope you get everything figured out, I was hoping to see your big ass hit 300 pounds.

Good luck man.


#6

You are coming off of a tremendous growth spurt and at the same time you are stressed. Your body is not going to grow no matter how many drugs you throw at it and you are probably lucky to be maintaining your current condition.


#7

Game time I upped it the adex to .5 ml’s a day as that’s the first thing I assumed as well.


#8

[quote]W.H.B. wrote:
You are coming off of a tremendous growth spurt and at the same time you are stressed. Your body is not going to grow no matter how many drugs you throw at it and you are probably lucky to be maintaining your current condition.[/quote]

I seriously doubt that. The growth spurt I experienced was due to the fact that I actually payed attention to detail in my diet instead of just doing the “see food” diet. My gains did were not slowing at all until I had to take 9 days off because of work, it makes no sense that I would suddenly stop growing because I had a period of good gains.

I’m aware that things don’t happen in a linear fashion but that just doesn’t add up.


#9

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
The depression makes it sound (to me) like it is something wrong with the drugs. Have you ever had any depression problems before?
[/quote]

I mean I’ve struggled with depression my whole life, but it’s never held me back from performing at a high level when I need to.

I will admit though I am extremely frustrated with this current nerve issue. Apparently my left trap has pulled my scapulea/shoulder girdle (w/e it’s called) up and in so the distance from the center of my chest to my left shoulder is 1 inch shorter than the right side, as well as slightly higher. This is turn is causing compression of the nerves which makes it difficult to feel the muscles working as well as I am used to. As I gain more size, obviously the nerve compression worsens. It also throws off my symmetry by quite a bit because it makes the muscle on that side appear shorter but thicker, it’s pretty weird. Hopefully this is something that can be corrected though.


#10

What is your total androgen count? I know a “guy” who used a the same cycle, and it was his first balls to wall type doses. High dose test, moderate dose Tren, high dose d-bol. Anyways, this well endowed person who also battled with certain depression/ mood disorder issues also noticed a significant increase in depression while on this particular cycle. He also was not gaining size or strength at a rate even comparable to previous use at 5oomg/week.

He attributed his problem to 2 things. The first one being, too high of an androgen count, which after consulting with other veterans he found was quite normal (and also very individual in regards to their dose). Also, you are pushing some serious size now, and I have noticed that after your body gets past your sweet spot it starts growing VERY slowly, even with AAS.

What are your doses? I would drop the tren down to 35-45mg/day and maybe drop the dbol down to 20mg preWO used more as an ergo aid than anything.

It is late so if this didn’t make sense just let me know.


#11

[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
What is your total androgen count? I know a “guy” who used a the same cycle, and it was his first balls to wall type doses. High dose test, moderate dose Tren, high dose d-bol. Anyways, this well endowed person who also battled with certain depression/ mood disorder issues also noticed a significant increase in depression while on this particular cycle. He also was not gaining size or strength at a rate even comparable to previous use at 5oomg/week.

He attributed his problem to 2 things. The first one being, too high of an androgen count, which after consulting with other veterans he found was quite normal (and also very individual in regards to their dose). Also, you are pushing some serious size now, and I have noticed that after your body gets past your sweet spot it starts growing VERY slowly, even with AAS.

What are your doses? I would drop the tren down to 35-45mg/day and maybe drop the dbol down to 20mg preWO used more as an ergo aid than anything.

It is late so if this didn’t make sense just let me know. [/quote]

Thanks man, always glad to have you chime in,

At the mid way point it’s 1g test/week + 50 mg/day tren + 40 mg/day dbol (20 pre and 20 post) quite a bit more than I’ve ever done, and this was the plan for the next 5 weeks. Last time I felt great on 1g/week test and at the 6 week mark had made some very nice gains (I also frontloaded that one though, and opted not to this time because I knew I had to work that shitty schedule and didn’t want to waste gear). I was expecting a very aggressive approach to training. Odd because I notice sides like night sweats and insomnia.

I honestly had no idea that too high of a dose could hinder gains, that’s crazy. I guess I’ll finish out this week, take a day off, eat extra food and if still no changes I can always drop the dose.

You’d think since I was 285 and still gaining drug free that I would very quickly bounce back to that weight/strength with assistance though yah? Fuckin weird.


#12

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Ok, this might be a long post so bear with me. I’ll try to make this as short as possible.

Anyways…ok so I took 6 months away from drugs, reached 285 pounds and hit some new levels of strength that I had never before. Bench press 430x3 and front squat 370x5 among some other things. After having this long period of time off I decided to get back on something and opted for a test/tren/dbol cycle.

I began the cycle and about 1 1/2 weeks in I had to do a crazy work week, nine 12 hour shifts in a row with only 1-2 meals per day (literally no breaks). After this I came out at around 279 pounds and obviously my strength had decreased some. Well now almost 4 weeks later, working with 1g/week of test as well as being on day 3 of my tren/dbol portion I’m only back up to 281 or so and my numbers are sucking balls. Using the same example bench is 405x5 and front squat is 315x5, I am also plateauing like a mother fucker. I don’t see how this is possible considering the amount of drugs I am using? Just doesn’t seem right.

Couple things:

  1. Source was suggested to me by a vet here so I highly doubt my product is bad, not to mention when it didn’t arrive on time source resent with nothing but my word, and everything looks like it should.
  2. I am eating the same amount of food that I was when I reached 285 and was still gaining.
  3. Suffering a little depression at the moment, having some pretty serious nerve/muscle issues that I will be getting professional help for starting next week
  4. Maybe added stress from school is a problem?

Bottom line is, I feel like I am wasting a time were I should be getting some massive growth and I have no idea what I am doing wrong. If anyone has any suggestions I am all ears, maybe I just need a day off? I don’t know. I just don’t see how it is possible to stagnate when on a dose of that size and eating plenty of food. (I will immediately increase calories now though)

I just feel like I’ve lost my mojo and am having a ton of trouble getting my aggression, intensity and killer instinct back to were it needs to be.

Thanks guys.[/quote]

I flicked over some of the replies and i believe WHB (the great guy he is!) mentioned what i am about to say.

This has happened to me… It was when i learnt one of the most important lessons in relation to PED use.

If my body is not ready to grow, then no amount of training, food or drugs will make it. it simply will not do it.

You can not grow indefinitely. It is impossible. if it were then there would be guys nearing 1000lbs of rock solid muscle!

Prisoner helped me through my first period you describe - and he did so with some small and very useful tips.

He told me that bodybuilding is more than just buidling muscle, and all the things we associate with it.
It is also having the mental fortitude to back off when necessary - and in this case, have the strength of character to continue training and eating and everything when all we are doing is maintaining.

hen this happens it is best to not force the issue. Keep dosages moderate or even drop them for a while, train but not to burnout levels and eat well but neither to gain (in excess) or to lose (deficit).
Then, when our body is ready to grow again - it will.

And it does. Trust me.

It will be of interest to note that i have done a couple of cycles before where i have not made any startling progress - and they have both been high dose cycles… 2g of AAS/wk.

I now do not use those doses anymore as for me (and all) simply increasing the dose does NOT guarantee an increase in growth.

My current cycle is just 525mg of Test/wk and 350mg of Drol! 875mg of AAS a week! that is fuck all by anyones standards, but it has been enough to promote growth in me and has been a very enjoyable cycle (just done 3 weeks so far)

Truth is, i was supposed to be dosing the drol at 700mg/wk - but i was dosing 25mg 2x/day instead of 50mg 2x/day by accident - but the fact is i have been really pleased with the results i got even when i though i was on twice the dosage!

Point is - it is not as cut an dried as AAS+food = growth. You have to be physiologivally ready to grow - and if you have just had a long period where this was happening, it may well be time you had a rest (ie. your body resting from growing - not YOU literally resting).

JJ


#13

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
W.H.B. wrote:
You are coming off of a tremendous growth spurt and at the same time you are stressed. Your body is not going to grow no matter how many drugs you throw at it and you are probably lucky to be maintaining your current condition.

I seriously doubt that. The growth spurt I experienced was due to the fact that I actually payed attention to detail in my diet instead of just doing the “see food” diet. My gains did were not slowing at all until I had to take 9 days off because of work, it makes no sense that I would suddenly stop growing because I had a period of good gains.

I’m aware that things don’t happen in a linear fashion but that just doesn’t add up.[/quote]

NO, it is fact. I will re-quote:

“Your body is not going to grow no matter how many drugs you throw at it”

Drugs, Training and Food do not guarantee growth. If you choose to believe that or not is upto you - but it is true regardless.

*Also FWIW, i find that high dose cycle mess depression on a very nasty level - nothing blatant, but destructive nonetheless. I also find that Dbol makes me unmotivated in the gym and seems to somehow stop me from progressing"


#14

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
It’s a 3 way split, run continuously until I feel I need an offday.

M-chest/tri/calves
T-back/bi’s
W-shoulders/legs/calves

and repeat.

I’m probably only getting 7 hours of sleep a night instead of 8-9 as usual, and I haven’t taken a day off since I did that work week. Maybe I just really need a day off, I just despise taking them when on cycle.

Thanks for the post man.[/quote]

Last post.

If you are lifting heavy (are strong) then this is clearly too much work.

7 hours of sleep, stress fro college, existing depression, high androgens - which often increase depression, sleep loss and stress levels… all with 7 day a week training to boot.

Sometimes it is hard to see the wood for the trees, hopefully you will see it clearer when it is in black and white now.

:wink:


#15

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#16

280 lbs is not light weight by any standard. Look like you have git a genetic wall (for now). If you look at some the top pros such as Ronnie, Cutler, Dexter. At one stage had pretty good mid sections. Then they just suddenly packed on 20 lbs in the off season, and they start to get the baby gut. Obviously at some stage, they started super-dosing the GH, when they can no long gain on AAS alone.

You are currently under a lot of stress, combined with hefty amount of AAS. Your cortisol level is probably off the chart. So that would affect your gains for sure. Also I think your AAS dosage is actually too high, your body is in rejection mode. It just can’t cope with all that stress. You are not sleeping enough, prbobaly stuffing down a lot of food, training very hard, and under mental stress, not to mention prossible depression. You are lucky that you are not losing weight.
Let’s put thing into perspective, Jay Cutler use to do a bit of guest posing in the off-season. He said he’d lose 5-10 pound over a weekend (flying out of state). So what you are experiencing is quite normal IMO.

I would suggest you to drop the toxic drugs first, tren and dbol. Just run test @ 700-800 mg per week with AI. Go easy on the training for a few weeks. Get some more sleep. Don’t go balls to the wall on training until your personal life is under control.

Also keep in mind that highly trained people (strong) are easily overtrained, because they activate a large percentage of muscle fibres (hence the strength). So five sets of five with 405 is very taxing on the body, compared to 5x5 with 220 on a less trained person. The CNS is doing a lot of work, your body doing a lot more work.


#17

BBB 500mg of tren (acetate?) per week is not really “moderate”. That would have the equivilant effect of at least 800mg of Test prop IMO.

I start to feel pretty shite if i use more than 25ED of dbol stacked or 40mg solo. Lots of tren and dbol is not comfortable, I get lethargic, endurance goes down the drain, “KILLER” back pump, can’t sleep. IME, IMO, AFAIK etc …


#18

Hey everyone thanks for the responses.

Brook- I’m not arguing that this phenomena doesn’t exist, but I refuse to believe it simply because I would then be placing limits on myself. If I start believing that anytime I’m not growing as fast as I think I should I will immediately use that line of thinking as a crutch, and that’s not something I want to do. I get your point though, I’ll take it easy for a few days, thanks man.

Bushy & meph- Here’s what I’ll do. I’ll take the next 1-2 days off, just chill and eat A LOT, if I get back in the gym and notice I still feel like shit, I’ll drop the dose and probably the tren/dbol as well as 1/2 the test dose and just cruise for a week or so then give it another shot.

I will say this is pretty disconcerting though, there’s only 1-2 in my life that I’ve ever experienced a plateau like this and they were both very early on when I was benching or squatting for days in a row. The key might just be rest, during that nice growth period I had I made sure I ran that 3 way split twice and then took sunday off. I haven’t been taking that rest day and that could be part of the problem.

Regardless, I’ll keep you guys updated, thanks fellas.


#19

Your car gets stuck in a ditch periodically - do you:

a) Push the throttle as hard as possible, pushing harder and harder refusing to admit you are in a ditch?
b) Accept the fact you are in a temporary hole and make adjustments to rectify the situation?


#20

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