T Nation

Someone Explain This No AI Concept

Can someone quite knowledgeable on the subject explain this no AI concept (just nolva for gyno) on cycle. @physioLojik? I know you advocate for this, though I know your e2 stays within range even when you run a cycle so do you have any clients running a cycle that let e2 run high with no dramas? Is it normal to feel like shit for the first few weeks and from there does the body level out even though estrogen is sky high? For me once e2 starts to elevate I feel like absolute shit, but I’d be willing to let that go if eventually I started to feel great.
I would much rather avoid using adex as it’s been a nightmare getting dosed right.
So far I havent found any studies regarding this, only stating the negative effects of high estrogen in men. Obviously this is not in conjunction with supraphysiological levels of testosterone.
Open to any well thought out ideas on the subject.

I believe the answers you seek can be found here:

I am not speaking for physio but I do have an opinion on the subject. Its not cut and dry and set in stone NO AI EVER FOR ANY REASON. I think if anything its if you need an AI you shouldn’t be running trt/cycles period. I subscribe to the no ai philosophy as my e2 levels seem to be prone to crashing very easily for whatever reason. I have run blast previously with highish e2 and just started another blast which I guarantee I’m running high e2 now and will be increasing in the coming weeks. I’ve never experienced this “feeling like shit” due to high e2. I’ve certainly felt like a dead man walking with crashed e2. Can you elaborate on why you feel like shit and where your tt and e2 are when your feeling this way?

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I haven’t run an AI in like 2 years. Feels great.

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Arimadex has caused all sorts of evil for me. For starters it lowered my HDL and increased my LDL. I have consistent labs showing sub par results for both on the AI and then labs showing immediate improvement in both approx two month ceasing the AI. I have crashed my E2 twice which gave me joint paint, anxiety and ED. The only sides I have ever had from high E2 were soreness and lumps near the nips. I now run lose dose nolva on my blasts and have had no issues.

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You will find some answers here, hopefully: On Estrone and Estradiol Conversion

Do u ever get brain fog or anxiety while using nolva? I dropped AI two weeks ago, planning hop on nolva (10mg a day, for trt) is this enough dosing?

I have not experienced any side effects. I only take 10mg ED.

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2 weeks into my cycle I was hit with what I assumed was high e2 (I front loaded test e). Crazy water retention, high blood pressure, could not sleep, anxiety and depression. So I started adex at 0.5 eod and after 10 days felt great. Upped my T dose again at some point and from there e2 issues again.
Bare in mind this UGL adex so it is more then likely its dosed less then suggested on the packet.

Honestly over adjusting adex dose all the time and looking into this no AI business, I havent made it easy for myself as I’ve upped my T dose twice over my cycle but still it’s just a pain. It just seems whenever it creeps up I feel like shit then I up my adex dose and start to feel good again and blood test shows around 27pg/ml.

Might add the classic signs for me is libido and ed, as it goes up I have issues with them and then as it goes down with the adjusted adex dose libido comes on like crazy, getting erections just walking in the door and seeing my wife :joy:

I think 80% of the TRT guys on this forum would have to quit and go back to low natty if that was the case. I am so glad my doc allows me to choose and offers the scripts as I need them.

@ the OP when I blast I let my E2 run with no anastrozole. I don’t get bad side effects infact my joints feel extra smooth and liquid. On TRT I control my E2 with anastrozole as needed. have never crashed my E2 I have no trouble keeping it between 24-35.

TRT:

Blast:

When I stop my blast I startup the anastrozole right away because my T drops 3-4 times faster than my E2.

@hrdlvn When you start your blast as your e2 comes up do you feel crappy? Like bloating etc? Before it all levels out again.

No I haven’t taken on water weigh or got sore nipples in 3 years. Only when I first started TRT did I have those issues. The higher T will always hit me first and E2 follows. My guess is the % of Free T stays around 4% which is what it is when I on my normal TRT dose. I honestly feel no different. But that is not the case when on TRT levels I have to keep my E2 between 22-27 to feel my best. My SHGB runs 24-29 so I get a lot of Free E2 and I loose libido and develop ED when my E2 is >35. Its very strange why while blasting my libido ED are fine.

It also take me about 4 weeks of blasting to start feeling stronger at the gym. I can’t figure that one out either.
Back on this no AI thing. I could run 80mg/wk and have TT of ~600 and would not need an AI but who the F wants to do that? Not me. I like my Free T in the 30’s if I can keep my HCT in range.

We have spoken previously you know my stance on no AI. Altho you said something interesting

This could make sense. I know when my test levels sky rocket at the beginning of a cycle i feel all kinds of wacky for a coupwof weeks then i level out. Could it be the same for estrogen? Sense i personally dont get the ED or libido loss with high e2 im not a good candidate to test this theory but you shouod def give it a try. Cant hurt anything. Let your levels run wild see how you feel after 4 weeks if need be start back adex

Not sure what my problem is then, I just feel like absolute shit when my e2 starts to go up. My SHGB has been 18 on both tests I’ve done so far on cycle, that would indicate a higher amount of free e2 in the blood right? My TT is twice the max on the standard refference range but my free T is 4x the max on reference range. Does this have any relevance?

Here’s my last blood test.

I’m just finishing up the last few weeks on my cycle now so it probably wouldnt be ideal though for my next cycle I will more then likely do it. I just hope after a few weeks everything levels out and even though e2 is high I will feel good. Just can’t stand to feel the way I do for too long as it’s really uncomfortable.

Your E2 is rather low for such a high TT were you taking anything to keep it down?
Sorry I can’t think straight in picomoles
TT 2334.29 ng/dL
FT 1769 pg/mL
E2 65.1 pg/mL

Did I get the conversion right?

Yes this was after I experienced the issues and upped my adex dosage. This was were I was feeling good but it’s gone up again since then. 100 pmol/L is 27 pg/mL

I have only blasted 3 times and my last one last month had to end early at 48 days do to high HCT on my 40 day T cyp steady state mini blood test. So I am not an expert by any means.
I just donated blood today and started a new blast tonight.

What are you running now that you’ve started your blast?

Def a good idea. Starting a blast i would wait til about the 6 week mark sense its gonns take about 2 weeks before your e2 starts to climb. If your still feeling like shit by the 6 week mark than i doubt its gonna change. You could always try armoasin instead of adex next cycle as well if you do end uo needing an AI