Well, ofc if someone asks a question in public, he will get subjective answers.
My approach is all in. I dont see any point to even go to the gym to gain like 10lbs on a 170lbs frame. The difference is so small, that no one would give a shit. Its like joining MMA club to just punch the bag, but then go to a forum full of fighters, asking for their opinion on his skills.
I mean, if someone bulks, he wants to gain size. Noticable size. Nothing noticable can be gained in 3 months. Building muscle takes years. Building impressive muscle takes 10+ years. Sometimes 20 years even.
All these “3 month bulks” and “3 month steroid cycles” are just a joke. Most of those people never get over 220lbs.
In Soviet times, most average men were 200-220lbs. Being below 200 was considered just skinny, malnourished and sickly. I mean, average male can just eat, get some chubs on and be 220lbs. If he works in a construction, he would be bigger and stronger than 90% of gym goers i see today.
I’m 219lbs currently at 6ft 3, I look very medium I’d say. When I bulk up to 225-230lbs I look big (not massive) in a T-shirt but not lean enough out of one. At 219lbs I’m bordering on looking very average in a T-shirt but a lot better out.
It seems i can’t get the best of both worlds!
220lbs is somewhat of a “natural limit” for most people who arent too short. I guess for shorter guys the same limit is around 200lbs.
Our natural ability to gain muscle is very limited. I have seen some research claiming as little as 30lbs - but thats probably according to different genetics. Thats why i dont believe in any natural sports - i dont think a human body naturally can be that good - our natural ability for strength and fighting is shit compared to much smaller animals. A 80lbs chimp would rip a head off a human ez-pz.
So in order to be good at physical stuff we need to use our natural abilities - brains and teamwork. What teeth and claws are to a lion, what rock hard skull and fists is to a gorilla - ability to create science of medicine and biology, creating steroids and knowledge to use them - is to a human being. Not using it, means just fighting against your own nature.
Natural physical sports imo is the same as fish training to run on a ground. Its not us. Unless we use our brain, which helps us overcome this weakness.
So 220 natty is very decent. Sadly, it is shit compared to enhanced. But not because you are shit, but because HUMAN ability to be big and strong is shit in general. Being natty and ignoring science is like a birds building planes instead of using their wings.
So a naturals journey is to enjoy the process. The bird just enjoys trying to build a plane, and he doesnt really care to fly anyway. But if you want the result, you need to use the natural advantages of our species(brains) just like the bird would just have to say “fuck it” and just use its wings.
My comments always come from a perspective of what CAN be done, using everything there is. Even tho i like lifting, i am not in this for a process of getting tired under the bar, and then stuffing food i hate till i feel toxic every second of my life. I do it for the result so when i say what i say, i always think from that perspective.
Lots of people would disagree and that is completely fine - i actually envy those who can just spend 20 years in a gym and look the same, and actually not want to end their lives because they feel like they are failing even at their own hobbies
Have I just become a curmudgeonly old guy in the weight room, or are these forums getting exponentially more needy? My memory could be skewed, but I thought beginners use to come here for real advice and actual pointers, not just constant validation and the dopamine fix you might be better served on other social media platforms. I legit can’t tell who’s just trolling anymore.
Was it a bad fever dream or were there recently posts on here worrying about clavicles or wrist circumference or something limiting how much muscle they can gain?
More needy for sure.
Some might even consider logging their training or something, instead of asking for monthly feedback with different lighting and poses in every photo.
How about some strength metrics?
I’d like to know what kind of poundage you added to your major lifts.
Pics alone, and they are too few to properly judge, IMO, you got more fat than I would have liked. But my opinion is based on what I did (and everyone reacts differently.)
I can’t speak for the OP, but Youtube is flooded with videos that essentially demoralize new lifters. Vids about how to calculate your potential, an obsession with being optimal, about how you reach your natural potential after 5 years, about how 80% of all natural gains come in the first 1 - 2 years, etc.
It ends up creating a neurotic paranoia about lifting.
220lbs is somewhat of a “natural limit” for most people who arent too short.
I do wonder why this limit exists. I know I sound dumb, but imagine a natural who can hit these standards, for example (with amazing control on all reps):
OHP 225 x 20, Incline 275 x 20, Front Squat 405 x 20, RDL 405 x 20, BB Row 315 x 20, Lat Pulldown Stack x 20
If the natural finds a way to get much stronger on all of these (or equivalent lifts), wouldn’t they get bigger even if they were assumed to be near their “natural limit?” Or would the fact that they are near their limit stop them from, for example, getting the Incline from 275 x 20 to 315 x 20?
Would they get stronger but not bigger? I have heard some naturals who’ve lifted for 15+ years say they’re still getting stronger but stopped gaining muscle. But it’s almost never large increases in strength.
Edit: Based these numbers on what I see jacked 220 - 240lbs guys lifting in vids. They’re almost always juiced to the gills though haha.
The limit exists because each species has a DNA, that has some info on the species in it, which basically says that there will never be a cat thats bigger than an elephant, etc. Its just basic info on the species, that keeps it within a limit of some norms. Since humans were never ment to fight or lift, but to use their brains, our bodies have very limited ability to build muscle. In the Ice Age when h.sapiens were living in the same place where h.neanderthalesis lived, one of the reasons why h.sapiens survived was the fact that we require 500kcal a day less, than neaderthals did. In an Ice Age, where you have to kill a fast animal with a sharp rock, getting these extra 500kcal a day becomes such a struggle(keep in mind you also spend those kcals running after that animal) that some neadnerthals actually starved while our species was able to move on. We also are a bit more skinny and fragile, compared to them. So that extra muscle was one of the reasons they died out(there are many other factors, but this is ONE of em also).
Basically our species is ment to be skinny fat, be able to survive on less, and walk long distances. Thats why we get fat. We can store food for months ahead. How many lions or wolves can get fat and dont need to eat for 2 months?
We thrive on getting fat when we can, then starving while moving to the next place. Strength is not our thing - our faces are fragile, our bones are thin. So our body doesnt want the muscle, so we are super limited naturally.
As far as strength goes, it mostly has a lot to do with neuro-efficiency. Some people can gain 10% body weight but increase 30% strength. Some can gain 10% bodyweight but only gain 5% strength. Its mostly how the muscle reacts and works - so there are people who can get more out of every lbs of muscle they gain, but its just genetics - you cant train that.
So the guys who can slowly gain strength and not size, are doing lifting BECAUSE they are this kind of people, not the other way around.
Powerlifting doesnt teach anyone to keep progressing in the same weight class. The people who can do that, are the ones that excel in lifting.
Sorry, I think I should’ve made my question clearer. It was less “why is it hard to get strong as a human” and more strength in the context of natural bodybuilding.
I see a lot of talk about natural limits in bodybuilding, but I’m just confused on why a limit would be at any specific point. For example, a natural who believes his chest is at its natty limit and can Incline 275 x 20. How would he know his chest is at its limit? What if he tried to increase his Incline to 315 x 20 with the same level of control and chest contraction? Would he be unable to regardless of what method or food intake he tried?
Obviously he can’t keep gaining strength forever, but how would he ever know the plateau is because of human genetics and not because he hasn’t tried a new programming method, upped his food intake, etc?
Its not specific, no. But within certain species, only a certain level of deviance can occur. There are some big dogs, some small dogs, but no flying dogs. So when we look at AVERAGE person, they seem to stall at a similar level.
Yes, natural limit means your DNA is saying that this dog will never be as strong as an elephant and that you are at your maximum potential.
Ofc no one should assume they are done as soon as they hit the first plateau. You should up the food, try different things, etc.
But you have to understand that 80-90% of your total gains are made very fast. Even on non-naturals - the most size is gained in the first years. When you look at pro bodybuilders, they had 90% of their size 5 years ago. They havent changed THAT much after that. Being the best is about the details, but for average person these details wont be that noticable.
So the thing is, that if you have bulked, and gained, and cut, and then bulked and gained, and now you seem to stall, even if you are not completely done with natural potential, you most likely are at 90%. The rest of naturals life is spent of grinding for years to gain those last few lbs, and put on some last lbs on the bar, that most people will never notice anyway.
If you have put in at least 3 years doing SOMEWHAT right, the chances are, you are mostly done. Never in my life have i seen an athlete whos story was “i grinded for 10 years, but then i found THIS method, and then i gained twice the size and strength”. When you look at anyone who is good at anything, they were good at that thing few years in. The rest of their life is done to work on the small details that matter when you compete against the best. But the most gains were still made in the first years.
There is no program, no diet, no method that will add 50% of size and strength onto a natural, that has been training and eating at least halfway decently.
Adding 10% to a 800lbs deadlift is super important for that pro. Now adding 10% to your 400lbs deadlift means nothing. You will get to your 400lb dead in 2-3 years. The rest of your life you will bulk and cut and bulk and cut, and rotate programs, and pay for coaching to add those 10% and if your baseline is crappy those 10% dont matter much.
This is also a reason why fitness industry makes so much money. We dont want to accept that we are average, we always think that there is some training method that we havent done, or exercise that ive been doing wrong or foods that i havent been eating.
So the point is - the limit is different to anyone, but its not THAT different as some people try to tell us. Some are better at this, some are worse, but the limit is not a double. It deviates by 10-20%. And even if you are not at the very limit, but you have been doing things right, chances are, you are at the point where reaching the actual limit wont be very noticable.
It is because of many of the listed arguments in this topic that I personally came to the conclusion some time ago that there is no point in doing heavy lifting and having a constant desire to increase my strength in these exercises. As much as I’m in denial, I think that even a predominantly machine workout will be plenty enough to keep me feeling toned and defying sarcopenia if I put in enough effort. Once the factors of mechanical stress, metabolic stress and muscle damage are present, there is no point in performing risky exercises or those that do not bring me pleasure. Because many of these exercises bring benefits, but with the premise that they are performed correctly. And the probability that they will ever be executed incorrectly is high. Especially when trying to set a new record that is not needed for anything.
But this is my personal opinion about the way I should train. To other people, my way is stupid and theirs is right.
Just curious how old you are? Not because I think there’s an age limit to be doing these drugs just because I was curious. The before picture you really don’t have much muscle at all. The after picture I don’t know I guess you put on a little bit you definitely put on something. I really don’t know what to tell you I think younger guys these days are in a f****** rush.
it’s actually just the specific person creating thread after thread saying the same goddamn thing, about once a week, if not more frequently, lol. He’s ridiculous.
For what it’s worth, I don’t believe he’s trolling. He’s more likely on the spectrum. I don’t think he can stop himself.
What drugs? Posting in the #beginner forum?
You created an account just to post this?
better get money back
I’ve recently come to a similar conclusion with regards to certain movements. Since most programs, it appears, center around the same specific movements, I’ve resorted to manipulating existing programs in order to logically periodize my training. As long as there is effort and consistency, specific movements hardly matters, as long as I cover the basic movement patterns.
Age seems to chip away at your muscle regardless of your efforts.
deadlift 100kg-125kg 5x5
bench press 60kg-75kg 5x5
squat 95kg - 115kg 5x5
OHP 40kg - 50kg 5x5
Shoulders 117cm - 123cm
i think its mostly water cuz somedays i still can see my definition its looks knda similar to 3 months before
here maybe u can see more on video