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Solving the PWO Puzzle Problem

Please read the following take from ?Solving The Post-Workout Puzzle ? Part 2?

So what’s the best way to rapidly increase protein synthesis after a workout? It seems that the 0.4g/kg of protein hydrolysate plus 0.8g/kg of glucose/glucose polymer plus insulin-stimulating amino acids takes care of the insulin angle. But remember, insulin isn’t enough. Providing BCAAs in an ideal ratio is the second part in rapidly stimulating protein synthesis.

I have a problem with the above. I cannot find anywhere in the article that actually states what the ideal ratio of BCAAs is. Leucine is mentioned as the BCAA that is responsible for increasing post training protein synthesis levels to those of pre training levels but that?s it. There is no mention of other BCAAs needed for this (only that BCAAs are beneficial post workout) and no mention of the amount of leucine needed either, let alone the ideal ratio of BCAAs.

As a side point, is the leucine in the whey not enough? Also, what are the insulin stimulating amino acids? Are these extra to the AAs in the whey?

To me the conclusion from the whole article is:

Quickly absorbed carbs and essential AAs in a 2:1 ratio (0.8g/kg:0.4g/kg)should be taken immediately post training and then after a further 60 minutes or so for ?bulking? and an unknown amount of leucine and possibly glutamine.

although I?m not convinced about the glutamine from the studies I?ve seen.

I am sorry if I am missing something but can anyone provide the answers please.

NB. Aside from this I do like the article however, and the author does provide us with a lot of excellent information.

Somebody please!

Let me get this straight, you are asking for the EXACT formulation of Surge? :wink:

I read it awhile back. Just buy Surge off this site and use it. The wholesale value of all the ingredients will cost you about the same.

This information should be widely available if it is definate!

An unrelated question to the original thread topic, however related to the article:

Can i take a multi or a glucosamine serving with Surge Post Workout? Is the absorbtion affected?

Shit, sorry bro, I thought I answered this one already (the PM’s are getting crazy LOL).

Answer: yes, then no. It is no problem to take it PWO.

[quote]samsmarts wrote:
An unrelated question to the original thread topic, however related to the article:

Can i take a multi or a glucosamine serving with Surge Post Workout? Is the absorbtion affected?

[/quote]

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:

Somebody please![/quote]

Dude seriously, you gotta relax. You’re asking very specific questions that 1) no one knows the answers to 2) no one will ever know the answers to (why would anyone study something so specific?) 3) even if we knew the answers, they would have zero effect on our progress. It’s just not that important. Really.

I appreciate your natural curiosity and attention to detail, but this is just getting crazy.

People often spew off a single study for the “ideal ratio of BCAA’s”, but it’s not really applicable. People with zero research experience need to stop trying to interpret studies for the purpose of marketing supplements (general comment that really has NOTHING to do with this thread).

In other words, we don’t know of an “ideal ratio”. The very concept is just sad (again, not a comment to anyone specific).

We also don’t know that the other BCAA’s have an effect independent of leucine or the other essential aa’s.

Leucine added to a whey drink seems to have an added effect, although the difference was not statistically significant. I discussed this here: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=556939

You’re right about glutamine, it’s not a big deal.

Again, I appreciate your attention to detail, but I guarantee that there are other aspects of your training/nutrition that can be better served by your focus.

Cheers

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:

I have a problem with the above. I cannot find anywhere in the article that actually states what the ideal ratio of BCAAs is. As a side point, is the leucine in the whey not enough? Also, what are the insulin stimulating amino acids? Are these extra to the AAs in the whey?

although I?m not convinced about the glutamine from the studies I?ve seen.[/quote]

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Rich Hand wrote:

Somebody please!

Dude seriously, you gotta relax. You’re asking very specific questions that 1) no one knows the answers to 2) no one will ever know the answers to (why would anyone study something so specific?) 3) even if we knew the answers, they would have zero effect on our progress. It’s just not that important. Really.

I appreciate your natural curiosity and attention to detail, but this is just getting crazy.

People often spew off a single study for the “ideal ratio of BCAA’s”, but it’s not really applicable. People with zero research experience need to stop trying to interpret studies for the purpose of marketing supplements (general comment that really has NOTHING to do with this thread).

In other words, we don’t know of an “ideal ratio”. The very concept is just sad (again, not a comment to anyone specific).

We also don’t know that the other BCAA’s have an effect independent of leucine or the other essential aa’s.

Leucine added to a whey drink seems to have an added effect, although the difference was not statistically significant. I discussed this here: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=556939

You’re right about glutamine, it’s not a big deal.

Again, I appreciate your attention to detail, but I guarantee that there are other aspects of your training/nutrition that can be better served by your focus.

Cheers

Rich Hand wrote:

I have a problem with the above. I cannot find anywhere in the article that actually states what the ideal ratio of BCAAs is. As a side point, is the leucine in the whey not enough? Also, what are the insulin stimulating amino acids? Are these extra to the AAs in the whey?

although I?m not convinced about the glutamine from the studies I?ve seen.[/quote]

David, if you read the PWO puzzle article you will see exactly what I mean. I am not too bothered in finding out the answer, I have a pretty good idea anyway, but the article states that it will explain the ideal post training nutrition inc. BCAA ratio and it seems to forget to put them in. The article hypes up the fact that research has finally been completed over the last several years to give us the answer to the ideal post workout nutrition and this is will be revealed in the article. It isnt. This is a very reasonable critique, so please read the article and see if you have the same the question, it would be totally reasonable.

Maybe it’s not stated exactly so someone else doesn’t come along and still the “receipe.”

Just came across this thread purely by accident and reckon its unfinished business.

I like Biotest and reckon the products are very good.

However, that article isn’t right!
Bollocks to the glutamine, I dont reckon Surge is significantly different from simple Whey plus glusose and thats it!

Yeh Surge is cheap, but 10 servings when Grow! has 75 for just $10 extra and glucose is almost free!

Come on, dont let your side down, explain if this isnt true!

Difference just real quick off the top of my head.

Hydro Whey a LOT more expensive than regular Whey. and taste like horse dung.

Magic the magic they do to mask the taste of that horse dung. you still get as lil after taste but not bad just proves to me the hydro is in there. FAST acting protein.

mix of optimal carbs. malto, dextros etc sure its cheap but then you have the pain of mixing the crap, Get the hydro and try and figure some way to make it more pallateable or just choke iot down ( dont it gets OLD)

The HIGH amount of BCAA’s above that in just whey etc. Sure whey has all of them But this is higher.

The stuff works man. Thats a big one for me. I can tell a recovery difference. The ease of use, at not a much larger cost my time is worth More than that.

Thats My opinion Im sure id have more if I pondered on it but this has been covered as LOT

Phill

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
Just came across this thread purely by accident and reckon its unfinished business.

I like Biotest and reckon the products are very good.

However, that article isn’t right!
Bollocks to the glutamine, I dont reckon Surge is significantly different from simple Whey plus glusose and thats it!

Yeh Surge is cheap, but 10 servings when Grow! has 75 for just $10 extra and glucose is almost free!

Come on, dont let your side down, explain if this isnt true![/quote]

Yea, dude, you need to chill like stated earlier. The BCAA’s separately are handled differently than when they’re in the whole protein. Also, hydro whey has been shown to hit the system and not have the rebound effect with blood/amino levels.

Im not convinced whey hydro is so much better than whey conc for muscle growth post training, insubstantial evidence, and regards the higher BCAAs, they are the same as in whey conc. Its only the glutamine really and we now know the studies on that one were generally dodgy and it does little or nothing.

The carb thing is surely negligible?

My real problem was the way the article was written. However, if it works it works.

Isthetimman, it is the job of certain people to criticise such articles and similar studies, as it is for the guys running this website whom Im sure you look up to. If ‘members of the public’ didnt critise we would all be extremely gullible and the supp companies would make even more money. Im not speaking of Biotest here, but in general the claims of supp companies are greatly exaggerated anyway. I have a background in sports science and nutrition and so it is only natural I criticise and I do it totally chilled. Open your eyes dude!

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
Im not convinced whey hydro is so much better than whey conc for muscle growth post training, insubstantial evidence, and regards the higher BCAAs, its only glutamine really and we now know the studies on that one were generally dodgy and it does little or nothing.

The carb thing is surely negligible?

My real problem was the way the article was written. However, if it works it works.

Isthetimman, it is the job of certain people to criticise such articles and similar studies, as it is for the guys running this website whom Im sure you look up to. If ‘members of the public’ didnt critise we would all be extremely gullible and the supp companies would make even more money. Im not speaking of Biotest here, but in general the claims of supp companies are greatly exaggerated anyway. I have a background in sports science and nutrition and so it is only natural I criticise and I do it totally chilled. Open your eyes dude!

[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong here. You’re calling glutamine a BCAA? Also, the BCAA’s they have listed are extra, there are studies showing these help (Koopman has various studies). I’m not saying you shouldn’t criticize. If you look in the site deep enough either Berardi or Barr posted about a study and the blood/amino profile after hydro whey compared to straight aminos (as often used in studies), whey isolate, whey concentrate.

I know I’ve read enough that convinced me hydro whey is better than the other whey product, but am I convinced enough to use only that? No, it’s not that big of a difference, I’m sure there are tons of other flaws I can work out in my training/nutrition/rest/supplements etc that could give just as much benefits as using hydro whey as opposed to whey isolate.

Sorry, I didnt mean to phrase it like that. I have edited it but I meant to say that the BCAAs in the hydro are near enough the same as conc and that the only big difference is in glutamine.

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
Im not convinced whey hydro is so much better than whey conc for muscle growth post training…[/quote]

Then don’t buy it.

Surely you could find better things to fill your time with than this.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
Rich Hand wrote:
Im not convinced whey hydro is so much better than whey conc for muscle growth post training…

Then don’t buy it.

Surely you could find better things to fill your time with than this.[/quote]

eengrms76

Should you really be part of a discussion forum?

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
Rich Hand wrote:
Im not convinced whey hydro is so much better than whey conc for muscle growth post training…

Then don’t buy it.

Surely you could find better things to fill your time with than this.

eengrms76

Should you really be part of a discussion forum?
[/quote]

I think you need to ask yourself that question. You come on here and try to question the products for sale with no scientific background simply because you’re “not convinced.” I couldn’t give a shit if you’re not convinced. It’s one thing to discuss a product on that product’s website- it’s an entirely different thing to try and discredit it.

eengrms76

I’ll bet your one of those bollock brains whose been ripped off time and time again by the salesman, and then tells yourself, “durrrr, the next one will be genuine!”

Look at the $ driven world around you…empty head!