Socialism's Eventual Result

So the top 1% control 22% of the wealth? And the bottom 50% control???
You made my point for me.

From 1980-2005, 80% of the wealth created in the US went to the top 1%
During that period, middle class wages stagnated while cost of living and especially HEALTHCARE rose exponentially.

As for corporations, your point is taken. So why do US corporations not just pay the tax and pass it on??

You know what if we just cut taxes for the rich and lessened regulations on corporations, we would have a BOOMING economy. Wait…

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
So corporate welfare and tax loopholes for the rich are ok then? That is NOT stealing, though right?[/quote]

So it is stealing to allow someone to keep what they earn?

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Thats really witty, as it always is the classic comeback of the rich when confronted with the truth. “You’re a damn commie!” Right? But what caused the Communist Revolution? No middle class!

By the way, since the fall of communism, the poorest populations in the world have seen their standard of living decrease by 20%.

I do not advocate communism, is it ends up being totalitarianisam. People who work and pay taxes just want their fair share–and want everyone else to pay their fair share. Like the rich and especially corporations like GE who paid NO taxes in 2010 or Google who payed 2%. Somehow that logical, American idea gets called Communist or Socialist.[/quote]

Life’s tough I know, but get your act together and try to actually make more of your life. Then you won’t be whining nearly as much. All the envy that you project will vanish as soon as you actually get ahead in life.

What do you say? Want to give it a try?

Or would you rather just continue to lose the financial game and whine about it? Hoping to live off the government dole is less than honorable.

Now off you go…

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Thought this was a serious discussion?

Hell with it.

Horray for the wealthy and privilaged!!!

Please rule me like a king!!![/quote]

Horray for those who get off there ass and do something useful for the world.

[quote]
garcia1970 wrote:
So the top 1% control 22% of the wealth? And the bottom 50% control???
You made my point for me.[/quote]
Yes, because they EARNED it.

[quote]
From 1980-2005, 80% of the wealth created in the US went to the top 1%
During that period, middle class wages stagnated while cost of living and especially HEALTHCARE rose exponentially. [/quote]
Again, because they earned it. The increase in the cost of living was mostly due to gov’t interference into the free market.

[quote]

As for corporations, your point is taken. So why do US corporations not just pay the tax and pass it on??[/quote]
They do, hence the increase in the cost of living. Or they buy a few congressmen and pass that cost on (whichever is cheaper)

[quote]

You know what if we just cut taxes for the rich and lessened regulations on corporations, we would have a BOOMING economy. Wait…[/quote]
We would certainly have a more fair economy. Those willing to do the work would excel, those who’d rather sit on their ass half baked all day would starve. Problem solved.

I know you hate the idea of the common good of all. I know that you probaly are doing ok and make enough for your family and such. I’m not going to debate the economic necessity of the social safety net with you.

I get it. You’re greedy. You’re probably against everything that Roosevelt did to create the middle class too. Do you know what life was like in America before that legislation? Should we go back to the days of child labor and no minimum wage, no collective bargaining? No healthcare for the poor and old? A country without a middle class? I think this all sounds very good to you. It does not sound good to the bottom 98% of us, though.

The sad thing is that you probaly are one of the middle class, too. You think you’re rich b/c you have a paycheck and a couple cars and a home. What if your employer decides your job should go to an h1-b immigrant for half the money and you’re fired?? No paycheck??? Tough times? Bet u file for unemployment. That’s anti-conservative. Maybe the guys in your church or gunclub will help you out.

Or maybe you’re a business owner. Alot of conservatives are business owners. What will you do when you are put out of business by a US competitor who paid NO taxes??

Just some stuff to think about.

Homework: Read the lyrics to “Like a Rolling Stone” by Dylan (damn pinko commie)

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Thats really witty, as it always is the classic comeback of the rich when confronted with the truth. “You’re a damn commie!” Right? But what caused the Communist Revolution? No middle class!

By the way, since the fall of communism, the poorest populations in the world have seen their standard of living decrease by 20%.

I do not advocate communism, is it ends up being totalitarianisam. People who work and pay taxes just want their fair share–and want everyone else to pay their fair share. Like the rich and especially corporations like GE who paid NO taxes in 2010 or Google who payed 2%. Somehow that logical, American idea gets called Communist or Socialist.[/quote]

Life’s tough I know, but get your act together and try to actually make more of your life. Then you won’t be whining nearly as much. All the envy that you project will vanish as soon as you actually get ahead in life.

What do you say? Want to give it a try?

Or would you rather just continue to lose the financial game and whine about it? Hoping to live off the government dole is less than honorable.

Now off you go…[/quote]

Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts, just smug personal attacks.

FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.
I am pretty successful in that I enjoy what I do for a living. If you want to measure success by income, I do well there too. I am a college professor.
I have an MBA and a PhD in Business Strategy, so I’m also better educated that probably everyone in this discussion.

Oh, and I think I KNOW what a corporation is. Thus the degrees.

I feel the way I do because I feel that our country could be so much better than it is. I don’t like my taxes going to endless war or subsidies for oil companies, but I pay them.

I do so, because I feel it is my DUTY to do so, in order for me to benefit from our system.

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
I know you hate the idea of the common good of all. I know that you probaly are doing ok and make enough for your family and such. I’m not going to debate the economic necessity of the social safety net with you.

I get it. You’re greedy. You’re probably against everything that Roosevelt did to create the middle class too. Do you know what life was like in America before that legislation? Should we go back to the days of child labor and no minimum wage, no collective bargaining? No healthcare for the poor and old? A country without a middle class? I think this all sounds very good to you. It does not sound good to the bottom 98% of us, though.

The sad thing is that you probaly are one of the middle class, too. You think you’re rich b/c you have a paycheck and a couple cars and a home. What if your employer decides your job should go to an h1-b immigrant for half the money and you’re fired?? No paycheck??? Tough times? Bet u file for unemployment. That’s anti-conservative. Maybe the guys in your church or gunclub will help you out.

Or maybe you’re a business owner. Alot of conservatives are business owners. What will you do when you are put out of business by a US competitor who paid NO taxes??

Just some stuff to think about.

Homework: Read the lyrics to “Like a Rolling Stone” by Dylan (damn pinko commie)

[/quote]
Wanting to keep what I earn is greed? Not wanting to pay for someone who’s too lazy to work to sit home and have babies is immoral? Expecting people to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their own decisions is anti-social?
No I’m not rich, but have been a good steward of my money. If I lost my job I have enough set aside to get by. I’ve diversified my income so I can continue to provide for my family. If you don’t like the situation of the bottom 98%, get off you ass ond don’t be one of them.

Homework: Get your economics education from somewhere besides a fucking song dude…

[quote]Redmond6376 wrote:
How about a standard of living for everyone that is commensurate with what they earn. Some people don’t want to put in the work to have a decent standard of living and therefore do not deserve one.[/quote]

This is a ludicrously simplistic view of the human experience. Hard work does not always generate prosperity. Idle lethargy does not always generate poverty. The number and scope of the influences that relate work and income are incalculable, and they reach into the ambiguous depths of history and even blind chance.

[quote]Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts, just smug personal attacks.

FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.
I am pretty successful in that I enjoy what I do for a living. If you want to measure success by income, I do well there too. I am a college professor.
I have an MBA and a PhD in Business Strategy, so I’m also better educated that probably everyone in this discussion.

Oh, and I think I KNOW what a corporation is. Thus the degrees.

I feel the way I do because I feel that our country could be so much better than it is. I don’t like my taxes going to endless war or subsidies for oil companies, but I pay them.

I do so, because I feel it is my DUTY to do so, in order for me to benefit from our system.
[/quote]

And yet your ignorant… Oil companies do not get subsidies. Subsidy: (n)Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.

Oil companies are not given money by the gov’t (unlike alternative energy companies). They get tax breaks, that is they are allowed to keep more of what they earn. They are given nothing.

I would hope with an MBA and a PhD you would know what the word means, but apparently not.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Redmond6376 wrote:
How about a standard of living for everyone that is commensurate with what they earn. Some people don’t want to put in the work to have a decent standard of living and therefore do not deserve one.[/quote]

This is a ludicrously simplistic view of the human experience. Hard work does not always generate prosperity. Idle lethargy does not always generate poverty. The number and scope of the influences that relate work and income are incalculable, and they reach into the ambiguous depths of history and even blind chance.[/quote]

Very true. Hard work at something that society recognizes as valuable will always generate prosperity (sometimes the hardest work is getting society to recognize the value). Idle lethargy will always produce poverty, unless unearned income is provided by an outside source.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
I know you hate the idea of the common good of all. I know that you probaly are doing ok and make enough for your family and such. I’m not going to debate the economic necessity of the social safety net with you.

I get it. You’re greedy. You’re probably against everything that Roosevelt did to create the middle class too. Do you know what life was like in America before that legislation? Should we go back to the days of child labor and no minimum wage, no collective bargaining? No healthcare for the poor and old? A country without a middle class? I think this all sounds very good to you. It does not sound good to the bottom 98% of us, though.

The sad thing is that you probaly are one of the middle class, too. You think you’re rich b/c you have a paycheck and a couple cars and a home. What if your employer decides your job should go to an h1-b immigrant for half the money and you’re fired?? No paycheck??? Tough times? Bet u file for unemployment. That’s anti-conservative. Maybe the guys in your church or gunclub will help you out.

Or maybe you’re a business owner. Alot of conservatives are business owners. What will you do when you are put out of business by a US competitor who paid NO taxes??

Just some stuff to think about.

Homework: Read the lyrics to “Like a Rolling Stone” by Dylan (damn pinko commie)

[/quote]
Wanting to keep what I earn is greed? Not wanting to pay for someone who’s too lazy to work to sit home and have babies is immoral? Expecting people to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their own decisions is anti-social?
No I’m not rich, but have been a good steward of my money. If I lost my job I have enough set aside to get by. I’ve diversified my income so I can continue to provide for my family. If you don’t like the situation of the bottom 98%, get off you ass ond don’t be one of them.

Homework: Get your economics education from somewhere besides a fucking song dude…
[/quote]

My point is, YOU are part of the bottom 98%!!! Average duration of unemployment in this recession is at an all-time high of 37.1 weeks. You’re not going to file for unemployment after that amount of time??? Come on.

Oh, I got my economic education at the Smeal School at Penn State, where I got my PhD.
Where did you get your’s?

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts, just smug personal attacks.

FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.
I am pretty successful in that I enjoy what I do for a living. If you want to measure success by income, I do well there too. I am a college professor.
I have an MBA and a PhD in Business Strategy, so I’m also better educated that probably everyone in this discussion.

Oh, and I think I KNOW what a corporation is. Thus the degrees.

I feel the way I do because I feel that our country could be so much better than it is. I don’t like my taxes going to endless war or subsidies for oil companies, but I pay them.

I do so, because I feel it is my DUTY to do so, in order for me to benefit from our system.
[/quote]

And yet your ignorant… Oil companies do not get subsidies. Subsidy: (n)Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.

Oil companies are not given money by the gov’t (unlike alternative energy companies). They get tax breaks, that is they are allowed to keep more of what they earn. They are given nothing.

I would hope with an MBA and a PhD you would know what the word means, but apparently not.
[/quote]

I am ignorant?? The oil industry gets $4 Billion a year in tax dollars. They just held hearings on it with the heads of 5 oil companies last week!

Wow. I should know better than to come to a bodybuilding forum and discuss policy. My frustration is my own fault.

Really?? Please enlighted me as to one subsidy an American oil company (Petrobras isn’t) recieves from the US gov’t. I’m not talking tax breaks, I mean subsidy.

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts, just smug personal attacks.

FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.
I am pretty successful in that I enjoy what I do for a living. If you want to measure success by income, I do well there too. I am a college professor.
I have an MBA and a PhD in Business Strategy, so I’m also better educated that probably everyone in this discussion.

Oh, and I think I KNOW what a corporation is. Thus the degrees.

I feel the way I do because I feel that our country could be so much better than it is. I don’t like my taxes going to endless war or subsidies for oil companies, but I pay them.

I do so, because I feel it is my DUTY to do so, in order for me to benefit from our system.
[/quote]

And yet your ignorant… Oil companies do not get subsidies. Subsidy: (n)Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.

Oil companies are not given money by the gov’t (unlike alternative energy companies). They get tax breaks, that is they are allowed to keep more of what they earn. They are given nothing.

I would hope with an MBA and a PhD you would know what the word means, but apparently not.
[/quote]

I am ignorant?? The oil industry gets $4 Billion a year in tax dollars. They just held hearings on it with the heads of 5 oil companies last week!

Wow. I should know better than to come to a bodybuilding forum and discuss policy. My frustration is my own fault.

[/quote]

Welcome to PWI Garcia.

A couple of things you need to know about this forum so you dont get to frustated.

  1. Its highly conservative, we liberals/progressives/socialists are few.

  2. Dont expect to win someone over to the other side, because its aint going to happen.

Just enyoy the debates here in the paralell universe and please stick around becouse we need more guys to the left of the GOP in economical matters, and that you have Phd in bussines if I remember correctly just makes it more important that you stick around.

Again welcome to PWI.

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]Redmond6376 wrote:
As a hiring manager here (US) I see the same thing. Usually 4 of the top 5 candidates are either immigrants or 1st generation Americans. it’s all about return on investment. If you can pay some one $1/hour and get someone who’ll bust their ass for you or a $20/hour slacker who is only willing to ‘work’ 40.00 hrs/wk and fucks off for 10% of that, it’s an easy choice to make. [/quote]

Yes but why should labourers be paid $1, well under the minimum wage? If they are slacking then they should be fired but this is all about maximising profits by driving wages down. Tata are asset stripping and looking for any excuse to do so. I admit they should be able to talk to someone on 330 on an afternoon though.[/quote]

What if $1 dollar an hour is big money where you live? What if I am just as hardworking and equally intelligent but happen to live in a country where to make ends meet it would require 15 for a lifestyle equal to that of $1 in yours? Seems to me the global wage apartheid is the real problem, if all countries were functioning at a similar rate of exchange then the best workers would win out…it simply is not possible to make a killing in industry in the 1st world when wages are 20x more expensive than the third world.

It’s odd, I work with alot of migrant workers, and they live better in their home countries when they return in the off season than I live here for the same wage. We think we’re winning by having inflated wages but perhaps we’re actually screwing ourselves for the immediate future.

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Thats really witty, as it always is the classic comeback of the rich when confronted with the truth. “You’re a damn commie!” Right? But what caused the Communist Revolution? No middle class!

By the way, since the fall of communism, the poorest populations in the world have seen their standard of living decrease by 20%.

I do not advocate communism, is it ends up being totalitarianisam. People who work and pay taxes just want their fair share–and want everyone else to pay their fair share. Like the rich and especially corporations like GE who paid NO taxes in 2010 or Google who payed 2%. Somehow that logical, American idea gets called Communist or Socialist.[/quote]

Life’s tough I know, but get your act together and try to actually make more of your life. Then you won’t be whining nearly as much. All the envy that you project will vanish as soon as you actually get ahead in life.

What do you say? Want to give it a try?

Or would you rather just continue to lose the financial game and whine about it? Hoping to live off the government dole is less than honorable.

Now off you go…[/quote]

Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts,[/quote]

Sure I do just don’t want to waste them on you.

Actually, I gave you good adice depending on the situation that you’re in. But if you want a personal attack I can do that too.

[quote]FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.[/quote]

Good for you, and I’m not Jack.

Say no more WHAHAHAHAHAAHA…you are on the University dole. And you are a member of the elite tha poisons our childrens minds. Can you imagine how difficult life would be if you had to get a real job and produce something of importance? Instead you stand before wide eyed college kids all day and fill their heads with this garbage. You’re big zit on the face of this economy you produce nothing and add quite a lot of harm. Be ashamed.

You are a pompous ass who has proven nothing. You are out of your league when not standing before empty headed 19 year olds.

I don’t really care what you think as you do not contribute productively to this economy. You live in la la land. I wonder how “successful” you’d be if you actually had a real job.

Go away.

Garcia is actually what’s wrong with this country. He and the others who feel empowered to spew this nonsesnse help graduate hundreds of thousands of kids each year from University’s with the wrong attitude. The come out feeling that the government owes them something. This character has helped create the enititlement mentality that questioinable politicians like Obama feed on to get elected.

Give this some thought, if you and your kind were to live without the support of people like me how long do you think it would take your ivory tower to crumble?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Garcia is actually what’s wrong with this country. He and the others who feel empowered to spew this nonsesnse help graduate hundreds of thousands of kids each year from University’s with the wrong attitude. The come out feeling that the government owes them something. This character has helped create the enititlement mentality that questioinable politicians like Obama feed on to get elected.

Give this some thought, if you and your kind were to live without the support of people like me how long do you think it would take your ivory tower to crumble?[/quote]
Garcia has a legit job. Actually, if the corporations didn’t vampire money out of the electorate in 09 then the American Financial Sector wouldn’t even exist anymore. The Bankers and other assholes would have had to get real jobs.

Screwing people out of their value, taking it for yourself, getting taken from taxes and redistributed again is a catch 22 dumb system…but don’t for a second tell me that the majority of the plutocracy in this country are innovative movers and shakers who made the cents they have. Truth is many if not most of the richies in this country are getting in their positions via networks of nepotism and getting cash from inheritance. They keep themselves in fortunate positions by having their money managed by banksters who invest every manner of usury you can think of that keeps many hardworking common men in perpetual wage slavery. BS like pay day loans, gas futures, and before that the ARM subprime mortgages that crashed the economy. If you think that the failure of the common man to save is entirely his fault, pull your head out of your ass. Yes, he screws up, yes he could be more disciplined. But why the hell should we have to pay artificially high price snot linked to supply and demand for commodities because rich boys want to play money games? Then when I’m short to buy bread and petrol, I’d have to take out a payday loan with some 25% interest that’d go back to the rich boy…
Not because he is smarter than, or more disciplined or a better person, but because he was born in one social caste and I another.

The system shouldn’t be set up that a man who is not born in a fortunate position has to dodge financial booby traps like a GI in hairy vietcong jungle. Your crocodile tears for socialists lack of concern for ‘justice for the rich’ is totally missing the element of, the riches total lack of concern for social justice in general.

I’m not a socialist, nor am I a liberatarian. I do believe in social justice however, and it is not coming for either angle.

I’d say in the upper middle class and lowest bracket of the upper class, you’ll find the people who actually made their cash.