T Nation

So, What’s the Deal with Estrogen Control?


#1

After researching, (actually I still am researching) I can’t seem to find a general consensus about how to control estrogen. I’ve heard anti e’s and make sure to have your estrogen between x-y and I’ve heard take some nolva and let it be because high T with high E is okay. Some people even say take nothing unless signs present themselves.

My question is, which protocol to follow and is there any evidence to support any of these theories ? (This is in regards to cycling and TRT doses of Test)


#2

@physioLojik any advice?

Anybody?


#3

I guess it all depends on you and your protocol and how you metabolize the testosterone and how your body converts to estrogen. If your just running trt dosages then I would say no ai and no nolva. Try and find a steady state that doesn’t leave you with high e2 symptoms and doesn’t negatively effect your hematocrit. If your blasting over physiological levels then protect yourself with nolva.


#4

@alldayeveryday thanks for the reply.
I’m wondering, why do you suggest nolva over aromasin(or whatever AI someone would choose) to protect against estrogen?

Does nolva protect against the sides of high estrogen like an AI would?(anxiety acne, etc) or does it just protect against gyno?


#5

I suggest nolva because these female anti cancer drugs just add another element and creates a balancing act. Aromasin I think is preferable over arimidex because it is a suicidal ai. Nolva selectively protects certain tissues and allows the estrogen in your body to do its job. I would say if you can use an ai without crashing your e2 and wrecking your lipid then go for it.


#6

@alldayeveryday thanks again. I’ll probbaly just stick to aromasin on my blasts like usual, haven’t had a problem yet.

I’m just curious on which method of controlling estrogen is safer/healthier in the long term because I keep reading different theories on what should be done, especially since finding these forums. I can’t find any scientific studies that say high or really low estrogen at any point in time is actually good(regardless of what your testosterone levels might be) so I’ve always thought keeping them in range is the best bet. Which is hard enough to do already.


#7

I hear ya. Opinions abound. On trt I feel finding a place where no ai is needed is best. I’m about to do run a blast with nolva. We will see how it goes.


#8

@atfit what @alldayeveryday has said is perfect. You can’t find studies where low estrogen is bad,?? How about destroyed lipids, serotonin, sex drive and immune health sound? Ideally you want a level where you don’t need e2 control from an anti estrogen


#9

This sounds great! I was wondering how I could speed up atherosclerotic plaque build up and make myself more prone to serious viral illnesses, give myself erectile dysfunction and depression. I think I’ve now found a way… SCORE, I’ll take 10mgs of adex.day


#10

@physioLojik no no, I said I can’t find studies that show high or very low estrogen being good( with high or low test) which to me makes it seem like if it’s not between the two pre determined numbers it’s bad.

And then when I think about it more, just as an example, say I’ run 500mg test e for 12 weeks, and for estrogen control I run nolva, my estrogen will still be high correct? I’ll just be protected from some side effects such as gyno.
On the other hand I could use an AI and try and dial in my E, but you disagree with using AI’s correct?
I guess I’m just curious about the reasoning behind AI, no AI, nolva, etc.


#11

@atfit finding the right estrogen level is really a crap shoot. The issue is that the blood ranges for e2 are based on normal testosterone levels. If you cycle your numbers are about 3-5x higher so why try to keep your estrogen at normal ranges when the normal ranges aren’t relevant any longer?


#12

@physioLojik very true, I see what you are saying. But on the same note, how do we know that having all that extra estrogen, or testosterone for that matter, isn’t doing damage? (I guess we won’t/can’t really know considering there aren’t studies being done on it huh?)


#13

What??? There IS studies done on this, having supraphysiologic levels of androgenic hormones over time can cause detrimental effects on cardiac function, it can adversely affect haematological parameters, mess with lipids (less with test, more with orals and stuff), effects on neurotransmitters exist, potential adverse affects on cognitive function due to potential neurotoxicity (although I highly doubt this is a legitimate concern, and if it is it’d be on incredibly high doses), There isn’t any large scale trials done to fully verify the claims however there is a moderate correlation/ body of evidence, I really think you should research a bit more so you know exactly what you might be getting yourself into. High estrogen is the least of your concerns, unless it causes enough water retention to give you high blood pressure.


#14

@unreal24278 from what I understand most of those sides are reversible upon cessstion of higher doses. And it would be stupid to say that taking high doses of any AAS will have no sides. There’s just not that many long term studies done. Is there are please point them out because I would be interested to read them.

Im mainly curious about the methods of controlling estrogen and why are there so many differing opinions. Is that okay??


#15

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/CIRCHEARTFAILURE.109.931063

(click downlaod PDF)

The studies tend to come to differing conclusions, but you get the jist. Animal models (rodents, a few rabbit ones and one dog study) consistently show detrimental cardiac remodelling from AAS, most specifically nandrolone, suprisingly tren is less cardiotoxic than test in rats, this is not the same in humans, what happens in animals will usually be different in humans however it gives you a possible reference. Methenolone (primo) at low doses in rats actually didn’t cause cardiac dysfunction.


#16

@unreal24278 thanks for the links I’ll give them a better read when I have some time later today. Everything in life has a trade-off, AAS Are no different, so every time you blast you’re trading your health for whatever you gain in the cycle.

I would still like to reduce as much harm to myself as possible , low dose, test only, blood work often, etc. This is where my curiosity about controlling estrogen comes in. When I crashed my estrogen I felt absolutely horrible, but on the flip side when I let my estrogen get too high, I get horrible anxiety, acne, depression and I feel off. But I can usually float around 70 (scale being 25-40 or something like that) so would it be harmful to have it slightly elevated for a cycle?


#17

Probably not, unless it’s giving you high blood pressure I wouldn’t worry about it. When you say low dose, how low is low? Some people say 500mg/wk is low, I tend to think of low as 250-300mg/wk, enough to give solid gains without significant health risks presuming you are a healthy adult male. However I wouldn’t be surprised if even 500mg is fairly safe, because I’ve heard of guys using 700mg for decades and getting away with it, but why take the risk when ya don’t need to, know, what I mean?


#18

@unreal24278 I know what you mean and max dose would be 500 for 10, maybe 12 weeks. Then a trt dose of 125mg per week for 3-6 months. I’m still trying to dial in my estrogen levels on my trt dose too, it is slightly elevated as well, another reason for my concern.