Thanks for the long and thought out advice, McCauley. I am helping a friend move furniture in about 10 minutes so I can’t post a good reply right now, but when I get back I will sit down and let know you know what I am confused on, because reading through, its a bit :).
@Lordstrom: thats a good point. I would like to hit 90 or 85 again to get a better video of it. Hopefully Monday if possible
at the very least try it. I’ve never done ANYTHING that immediately helped my snatch more than this. Think I said it earlier that I went from being scared of what might go wrong and missing even a mere 70 kgs again and again(and hitting my pelvic area) to doing triples with 85 and snatching PRs and just overall feeling way way more confident with snatching.
You need to keep the center-of-gravity over the middle of your feet. You can feel that spot by “grabbing” the platform with your toes. If your feet are going forwards or backwards on the platform any, you are not pulling straight, and thus are leaving kilos on the platform.
People who lift off their heels often will jump backwards 2-3" as their center of gravity is off balance towards the rear.
You need to learn to keep your shoulders relaxed until you bring the bar in with your hands on the second pull. Once you feel the bar make contact with the pelvic region, that’s when you violently shrug the bar, and display the feet outward.
DO NOT SWING. This is not a back lift. It is a leg and shoulder lift.
Lastly, and most important, KEEP YOUR ASS DOWN! I’m not sure how tall you are, but the taller you are, the weaker your lower back will be. Notice how your ass is coming in the air faster in comparison to your chest/shoulders? You are leaving at least 10 kg on the platform by breaking your back.
Check out my Youtube channel (same name) to see some examples of the “proper” technique, according to Eastern Bloc championship lifters.
Ass is definitely up, need to keep it down. Maybe keeping back angle up more will help. Lordstrom’s idea seems good to try, since it seems to fix my problem of hips raising first.
I need to keep weight back more, from what I understand from McCauley. I did check out those videos as well. I will give the two drills a try when I get into the gym again. Maybe I could do it with my bo staff haha.
@Turbo: I am pretty tall, and I would love to move backward on the snatch instead of forward, if it meant my technique was improving.
Personally I disagree with this. It makes no sense to me why you wouldn’t want the weight on your heels. Unless it made the bar to scrape your whole shin and quad so much that it slowed down… The center of gravity isn’t the center of your foot.
Do you bench press with the bar resting in your palm or right where your fingers start?(assuming of course that the top part of your hand is looking down towards the ground and not towards the wall) Or even worse at the edge of your fingers? Its simple physics lifting mechanics.
[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
Personally I disagree with this. It makes no sense to me why you wouldn’t want the weight on your heels. Unless it made the bar to scrape your whole shin and quad so much that it slowed down… The center of gravity isn’t the center of your foot.
Do you bench press with the bar resting in your palm or right where your fingers start?(assuming of course that the top part of your hand is looking down towards the ground and not towards the wall) Or even worse at the edge of your fingers? Its simple physics lifting mechanics.[/quote]
Because you shift the weight back on your heels for a split nanosecond right before the explode, then back to middle. Try balancing on one foot some time. Notice how it is easier to stay upright when the weight is on the middle, rather than the heel. I haven’t ever seen any human who had a perfect center-of-gravity keeping their weight on the heel. Keep in mind I don’t necessarily mean in the exact middle of the foot, but it’s going to be really close to the median of the foot (lengthwise).
The object of efficient lifting is to get the bar as perfectly straight as possible throughout the entire movement. This is much harder to achieve when balancing on the heels or on the front of the foot. I noticed after finally believing my coach about not lifting from the heels, I completely stopped missing lifts behind my head. It has been at least six months since I have dumped a weight behind me, which is the time that I started consistently lifting from the middle of the feet. There is no reason a lifter should miss behind them. The only reason someone loses the bar behind them is due to them being too far back on their feet at the point of explode.
I’ve seen some lifters, like Jon North, who start on their heel and finish in the middle of their feet. He’s a really strong guy but not totally efficient.
As far as benching, I don’t bench. And please don’t confuse the hands with the feet. You are comparing apples with oranges.
[quote]cloystreng wrote:
Ass is definitely up, need to keep it down. Maybe keeping back angle up more will help. Lordstrom’s idea seems good to try, since it seems to fix my problem of hips raising first.
I need to keep weight back more, from what I understand from McCauley. I did check out those videos as well. I will give the two drills a try when I get into the gym again. Maybe I could do it with my bo staff haha.
@Turbo: I am pretty tall, and I would love to move backward on the snatch instead of forward, if it meant my technique was improving. [/quote]
The best exercise for making the lower back stronger on the lifts is doing deadlift pulls to below knee, holding for 2-3 seconds each rep. I’ll post some video next time we do them. Remember to keep the shoulders relaxed throughout the lift. It is all legs, ass, and lower back from floor to first pull transition.
You WILL shake horribly around your max weight, I guarantee you. You’ll probably need to start repping 3-4 times for a few sets of 70-80% of your max weight for a month or two before it starts getting comfortable.
I look forward to trying these things out. I didn’t lift yesterday because I helped a fellow lifter’s girlfriend change apartments, and moved a lot of furniture.
I will lift on Monday, and see what I can apply. I feel like it will be a slow process.
[quote]TurboLykes wrote:
Because you shift the weight back on your heels for a split nanosecond right before the explode, then back to middle. Try balancing on one foot some time. Notice how it is easier to stay upright when the weight is on the middle, rather than the heel. I haven’t ever seen any human who had a perfect center-of-gravity keeping their weight on the heel. Keep in mind I don’t necessarily mean in the exact middle of the foot, but it’s going to be really close to the median of the foot (lengthwise).
The object of efficient lifting is to get the bar as perfectly straight as possible throughout the entire movement. This is much harder to achieve when balancing on the heels or on the front of the foot. I noticed after finally believing my coach about not lifting from the heels, I completely stopped missing lifts behind my head. It has been at least six months since I have dumped a weight behind me, which is the time that I started consistently lifting from the middle of the feet. There is no reason a lifter should miss behind them. The only reason someone loses the bar behind them is due to them being too far back on their feet at the point of explode.
I’ve seen some lifters, like Jon North, who start on their heel and finish in the middle of their feet. He’s a really strong guy but not totally efficient.
As far as benching, I don’t bench. And please don’t confuse the hands with the feet. You are comparing apples with oranges.[/quote]
T,
This is wrong on many levels. Nobody in olympic lifting that knows anything coaches to keep the bar perfectly straight. The “S” pull has been studied and reviewed for years and is accepted as the best way to deliver force to the bar during the olympic lifts. If your coach has convinced you to pull the bar straight, he has you going down the wrong road. The old straight pull is a dinosaur from the days when you couldn’t touch your body with the bar. Then, it was reasonable to pull the bar stright and keep the balance in the middle of the feet. In fact, it was about the only thing you could do. Since the changing of the rules, a much more efficient pull has evolved.
The 1st pull is, after most set up on the front of their feet, done by pushing up through the rear of the feet, along with a sweeping motion of the arms caused by a tightening of the lats, which starts the bar on a diagonally inward line.
At or near the conclusion of the double-knee bend, the balance on the feet normally moves forward as force from hip and remaining knee extension drive the bar up and slightly outward(still over base of support).
BTW,this IS NOT where a lifter initiates a forceful shrug. As the arms, the traps are used only after the torso has achieved at least a vertical position, or slightly past that. And, they are used NOT to raise the bar but to pull the athlete under the bar.
And, missing behind is not a terrible problem and the best fix is certainly not lifting in a straight line from the middle of the feet.
CoachMc
[quote]coachmccauley wrote:
T,
This is wrong on many levels. Nobody in olympic lifting that knows anything coaches to keep the bar perfectly straight. The “S” pull has been studied and reviewed for years and is accepted as the best way to deliver force to the bar during the olympic lifts. If your coach has convinced you to pull the bar straight, he has you going down the wrong road. The old straight pull is a dinosaur from the days when you couldn’t touch your body with the bar. Then, it was reasonable to pull the bar stright and keep the balance in the middle of the feet. In fact, it was about the only thing you could do. Since the changing of the rules, a much more efficient pull has evolved.
The 1st pull is, after most set up on the front of their feet, done by pushing up through the rear of the feet, along with a sweeping motion of the arms caused by a tightening of the lats, which starts the bar on a diagonally inward line.
At or near the conclusion of the double-knee bend, the balance on the feet normally moves forward as force from hip and remaining knee extension drive the bar up and slightly outward(still over base of support).
BTW,this IS NOT where a lifter initiates a forceful shrug. As the arms, the traps are used only after the torso has achieved at least a vertical position, or slightly past that. And, they are used NOT to raise the bar but to pull the athlete under the bar.
And, missing behind is not a terrible problem and the best fix is certainly not lifting in a straight line from the middle of the feet.
CoachMc[/quote]
I invite you to watch the few YouTube videos I have up. You’ll probably agree it’s pretty near-perfect technique.
Of course, the bar is usually never perfectly straight, as most of us don’t train under rigorous coaching since the age of 10. The third pull usually is the least straight of all the pulls due to the head swinging. However, the first and second pulls of the elite weightlifters are usually damn-near straight.
If you were trained in the American style of weightlifting we’ll never agree on the correct technique. The reason I lift the way I do is because it’s how my first coach, former Junior World Champion, lifts.
As far as the shoulder shrug at explosion, I was taught to do this to achieve the “booster affect” (like a rocket going into space) right after the point of explode. Whether that is helping me pull under the bar or get the bar higher, it sounds like it is achieving the same goal. What is your opinion?
in your videos you are swinging the bar forward a bit(not that I don’t) which IMO can be reduced by staying on heels. On your first 90kg snatch video you also jump forward an inch or so
I agree with you on the shrug though. I think its good if its there, as long as it starts with or after the explosion and it doesn’t slow you down( as in… waiting for your shoulders to shrug to a certain height before you start getting under the bar). Whether you are pulling the bar up or pulling yourself under is kind of moot if there’s no “waiting” at the end of the pull before you start the descent.
Last not to sound rude but I wouldn’t call your technique near perfect. I’d say you have a solid base technique, something which I believe I will have too in a couple months or so, but I think thats far from calling it near perfect. I think near perfect technique have people who go to the olympics.
[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
in your videos you are swinging the bar forward a bit(not that I don’t) which IMO can be reduced by staying on heels. On your first 90kg snatch video you also jump forward an inch or so
I agree with you on the shrug though. I think its good if its there, as long as it starts with or after the explosion and it doesn’t slow you down( as in… waiting for your shoulders to shrug to a certain height before you start getting under the bar). Whether you are pulling the bar up or pulling yourself under is kind of moot if there’s no “waiting” at the end of the pull before you start the descent.
Last not to sound rude but I wouldn’t call your technique near perfect. I’d say you have a solid base technique, something which I believe I will have too in a couple months or so, but I think thats far from calling it near perfect. I think near perfect technique have people who go to the olympics.[/quote]
Near perfect for a guy who snatches 90 kg off a platform. Basically, an amateur. If I lifted off the heels I’d be jumping back at least 2-3 inches, based on previous experience. Yes, I am usually more forward than backward these days (overcompensation). Obviously, jumping forward 1" means I was probably about 1/16" above my “ideal” spot near the middle of my foot. We need to paint some black lines so analyzing the lateral efficiency is easier. Thanks for the criticism, back to the weightroom for me.
The person with the best technique here is Gqartguy imo on heavy weights. Any mug can make 80% look sweet, but what % of your 1Rm can you make look sweet?
The bar does not go straight up, thats old skool where the rules were different. As coachmccauley has stated the bar goes in a flattened S shape.
Most european lifters will over pull and end up 2-3inches behind the bar. No big deal imo as long as you do it consistently, but if it’s 6inches that way too much.
Weight transfer is from
front to back of foot during the first pull, but not fully all the way, just the direction of it btw
back to front for the second pull : more dramatic weight transfer than the front to back imo
It’s not good to tell a lifter this until much later. They get paralysed by this and can’t put any power to the bar.
Get them to do the 1st pull correct and the 2nd pull the weight transfer will be natural imo.
Koing
