T Nation

Slow Gains vs Rapid

What is everybodies thoughts on utilising a short cycle(3-4 weeks) with a relatively low dose of juice, say 250ml sus cycled with common d-bol. vs some of these other rather extensive and complicated cycles I have seen.

I have heard from some of the old school trainers and read in other forums that some of the old school pros used a comparitively light cycle, compared to some of the modern dosages, and it must be admitted that some great physiques came out of the 60’s 70’s. their dosages were lower and their gains were slower, but the physical strain was a lot less. with the addition of a multi billion dollar supplement industry, this can be alleviated slightly(joint recovery).

However I am quickly becoming a strong believer that any AAD cycles should be realtively light simple and short with a reasonable length of time for the body to recover. Gains cannot be maintained if you come off the gear if they are put on too quickly. Maybe this is very old fashioned but I personally only use juice as a very effective supplement to “supplement” my gains. the cycle consists of d-bol x6 a day and 250ml of sus a week. I might try a slightly heavier cycle of 500ml of sus with my next.

fair enough gains are slow, but safe, and I feel that when I am 50 years I will still be able to train. I have seen some boys that do heavy cycles, get big gains, but are physically arsed by the time they are 30.

[quote]frogie2001 wrote:
What is everybodies thoughts on utilising a short cycle(3-4 weeks) with a relatively low dose of juice, say 250ml sus cycled with common d-bol. vs some of these other rather extensive and complicated cycles I have seen.

I have heard from some of the old school trainers and read in other forums that some of the old school pros used a comparitively light cycle, compared to some of the modern dosages, and it must be admitted that some great physiques came out of the 60’s 70’s. their dosages were lower and their gains were slower, but the physical strain was a lot less. with the addition of a multi billion dollar supplement industry, this can be alleviated slightly(joint recovery).

However I am quickly becoming a strong believer that any AAD cycles should be realtively light simple and short with a reasonable length of time for the body to recover. Gains cannot be maintained if you come off the gear if they are put on too quickly. Maybe this is very old fashioned but I personally only use juice as a very effective supplement to “supplement” my gains. the cycle consists of d-bol x6 a day and 250ml of sus a week. I might try a slightly heavier cycle of 500ml of sus with my next.

fair enough gains are slow, but safe, and I feel that when I am 50 years I will still be able to train. I have seen some boys that do heavy cycles, get big gains, but are physically arsed by the time they are 30.[/quote]

  1. well a lot of us like shorter cycles, it seems to be better in the long term, however, sust is a poor choice due to its decanoate ester, a better option would be to use prop and up the dose just a little (like 400-500mg/week for someone around 175 lbs) along with as little as 20mg of dbol a day or up to 50 if you really wanna go nuts.

  2. the old school guys also lied alot about the doses they are taking

  3. maintenance of gains is due to many other factors which has more to do with proper cycle design rather than dosage and time, however, i am not discounting these as factors, just pointing out that there is more to it. for example 200mg of test enanthate a week is usually the replacement dose. this leads to the same level of shutdown as 600mg per week

  4. you seem to have the right idea, just keep reading as many resources as you can get your hands on

maintainance of gains also depends where you are in relation to your ‘natural’ genetic max. If like myself or many other bodybuilders, you are much beyond your genetic peak, then retention of much of your gains is going to be unrealistic

Well I think that if you used 1ml of Sus, a week for 6 weeks, had a great diet and trained your ass off, you would get great gains especially if it was your first time using steroids.

[quote]Alphaboy wrote:
Well I think that if you used 1ml of Sus, a week for 6 weeks, had a great diet and trained your ass off, you would get great gains especially if it was your first time using steroids.

[/quote]

no you wouldn’t unless you are stacking with something else. at this dosage there is more than enough for shutdown to occur and barely provides you with more than you would naturally have. if you are making gains on 250mg a week, then you should look into what your test levels are off cycle. the level can be influenced by many factors, most of which are environment related and you could get the same gains that the sust would provide without using (this applies to a dosage of 250mg/week, at higher dosages, the free test levels go up and you get more gains)

  1. well a lot of us like shorter cycles, it seems to be better in the long term, however, sust is a poor choice due to its decanoate ester, a better option would be to use prop and up the dose just a little (like 400-500mg/week for someone around 175 lbs) along with as little as 20mg of dbol a day or up to 50 if you really wanna go nuts.

  2. the old school guys also lied alot about the doses they are taking

  3. maintenance of gains is due to many other factors which has more to do with proper cycle design rather than dosage and time, however, i am not discounting these as factors, just pointing out that there is more to it. for example 200mg of test enanthate a week is usually the replacement dose. this leads to the same level of shutdown as 600mg per week
    [/quote]

I’m not sure what the effects of prop are. I certainly noted that even on a short cycle (4 weeks)bacne was prevalent. One other question to throw out there is what would a safe rate of growth be on gear if naturally a serious lifter can expect about 5kg annually. I experienced about 2kg of good quality lean mass from the very light 4 week cycle and am wondering if any more than this would start to show the signs of gear abuse (bacne, aggression, temper). I guess this would depend on the individuals tolerance. However I am trying to be very careful not to be too obvious with it as thier is a very strong anti attitude of gear use. the category of has muscle must use steroids is pretty narrow here.

[quote]morbo wrote:
Alphaboy wrote:
Well I think that if you used 1ml of Sus, a week for 6 weeks, had a great diet and trained your ass off, you would get great gains especially if it was your first time using steroids.

no you wouldn’t unless you are stacking with something else. at this dosage there is more than enough for shutdown to occur and barely provides you with more than you would naturally have. if you are making gains on 250mg a week, then you should look into what your test levels are off cycle. the level can be influenced by many factors, most of which are environment related and you could get the same gains that the sust would provide without using (this applies to a dosage of 250mg/week, at higher dosages, the free test levels go up and you get more gains)[/quote]

Well i did that above cycle and went from 175lbs to 190lbs, then at this moment 185lbs.

I finished the six week cycle with TRIBEX and Biotest M did this for 4 weeks.

Feel fine, well thats my experinece anyway!

[quote]morbo wrote:
Alphaboy wrote:
Well I think that if you used 1ml of Sus, a week for 6 weeks, had a great diet and trained your ass off, you would get great gains especially if it was your first time using steroids.

no you wouldn’t unless you are stacking with something else. at this dosage there is more than enough for shutdown to occur and barely provides you with more than you would naturally have. if you are making gains on 250mg a week, then you should look into what your test levels are off cycle. the level can be influenced by many factors, most of which are environment related and you could get the same gains that the sust would provide without using (this applies to a dosage of 250mg/week, at higher dosages, the free test levels go up and you get more gains)[/quote]

Well can you give us some advice? How many mls per wek should you use of SUS to get benefits?

[quote]morbo wrote:
Alphaboy wrote:
Well I think that if you used 1ml of Sus, a week for 6 weeks, had a great diet and trained your ass off, you would get great gains especially if it was your first time using steroids.

no you wouldn’t unless you are stacking with something else. at this dosage there is more than enough for shutdown to occur and barely provides you with more than you would naturally have. if you are making gains on 250mg a week, then you should look into what your test levels are off cycle. the level can be influenced by many factors, most of which are environment related and you could get the same gains that the sust would provide without using (this applies to a dosage of 250mg/week, at higher dosages, the free test levels go up and you get more gains)[/quote]

I tend to agree with this. I noted that at lower levels of sus used the growth was slow maybe only slightly above natural. However with the increase in gear and stacks also increases strain on your bodies systems. It was good to read a weight gain per week 250mg a week. is it common consensus that being on gear this would be a safe rate of increase in lean mass? Safe being low levels of toxicity and impact on body systems / joints