T Nation

Slightly Below Parallel vs ATG for Vert

If anyone has sufficient knowledge on this I would like to know if anyone is better then the other when it comes to improving your vertical jump. Or does it not make a difference.

just below parallel is fine for it,…ATG squats can damage the knees if done improperly, and a slightly wider stance to just below parallel will work the muscles for the vertical

thanks for the reply, i know its fine for it but id like to know if one is better then the other, im can do both with proper form so im wondering if there are any advantages to either, or do both produce same results when it comes to jumping

i am assuming your atg squats are pretty close stance…a wider squat will hit the hams, glutes and hips more

In terms of vertical jump performance, training with a narrow stance, Olympic squat, with with ankles dorsi flexed will yield greater vertical jump gains.

I’ve conducted several years of test data using various teams and athletes from various levels, and the data has pointed in this direction. I actually have a grad student working with me on this topic and if this subject gets approved, it likely will come out as published research.

As it stands, it appears the increase to vertical training this way has more to do with an increased ROM in the ankle joint which allows one to produce more force when vertical jumping. There are a few more issues that relate to flexibility as to why this is the case as well.

It’s all very interesting.

[quote]Dominator wrote:
In terms of vertical jump performance, training with a narrow stance, Olympic squat, with with ankles dorsi flexed will yield greater vertical jump gains.

I’ve conducted several years of test data using various teams and athletes from various levels, and the data has pointed in this direction. I actually have a grad student working with me on this topic and if this subject gets approved, it likely will come out as published research.

As it stands, it appears the increase to vertical training this way has more to do with an increased ROM in the ankle joint which allows one to produce more force when vertical jumping. There are a few more issues that relate to flexibility as to why this is the case as well.

It’s all very interesting.

[/quote]

You should post more often.

Another fast way to increase your v-jump is to run up stairs, skipping 2-3 stairs at time, with dumbbells or a weight belt. In junior college my basketball coach had me do this 3 times a week for 6 - 7 weeks. I started at the bottom of 3 flights of stairs outside the lab building with 15 lb. dumbells in each hand and jumped up, one leg at time, skipping 2 stairs, all the way to the top.

(If you have access to a weight belt that is even better). I walked back down and repeated this about 8 - 10 times on M-W-F. At the start I could only touch the rim with my fingertips, at the end I could dunk the ball with two hands, with only 1 step to the basket.

My jump increased 10 - 12" in 6 weeks, and I had been playing b-ball pretty frequently prior to starting this stair training. This also helped my endurance running up and down the court.
I’m 6’2" and at the time I weighed 190.

to be honest, my ATG backsquat (so i’m sitting on my calves) realistically is only a bit below parallel

[quote]brian.m wrote:
to be honest, my ATG backsquat (so i’m sitting on my calves) realistically is only a bit below parallel[/quote]

I seriously doubt for most people there’s really much of a difference.

[quote]Dominator wrote:
In terms of vertical jump performance, training with a narrow stance, Olympic squat, with with ankles dorsi flexed will yield greater vertical jump gains.

[/quote]

What do you meant squat with ankles dorsi flexed? Are you saying the toes are off the floor or do you mean ‘driving through the heels’?

I know that dorsi flex means your tibalis muscle is contracted with your toes pointing up towards the shin but I can’t see how that can be done with feet flat on the floor during a squat.

[quote]JGerman wrote:

What do you meant squat with ankles dorsi flexed? Are you saying the toes are off the floor or do you mean ‘driving through the heels’?

I know that dorsi flex means your tibalis muscle is contracted with your toes pointing up towards the shin but I can’t see how that can be done with feet flat on the floor during a squat.

[/quote]

The tibeas are not perpendicular to the floor. Like a standard olympic squat where the knees drift forwards to a degree.

[quote]AssClown wrote:
brian.m wrote:
to be honest, my ATG backsquat (so i’m sitting on my calves) realistically is only a bit below parallel

I seriously doubt for most people there’s really much of a difference.[/quote]

I was about to ask what is the difference. when I drop to the lowest I can go down, the top of my thigh is parallel to the floor, and my hammies are on my calfs, I’m not a big guy so i’m trying to figure out how people go lower, maybe a wider stance

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
AssClown wrote:
brian.m wrote:
to be honest, my ATG backsquat (so i’m sitting on my calves) realistically is only a bit below parallel

I seriously doubt for most people there’s really much of a difference.

I was about to ask what is the difference. when I drop to the lowest I can go down, the top of my thigh is parallel to the floor, and my hammies are on my calfs, I’m not a big guy so i’m trying to figure out how people go lower, maybe a wider stance[/quote]

Wider stance and longer femurs? My ATG is about 4-5" deeper than parallel with feet slightly wider than shoulder width.

Go as low as your flexibility allows safely. Rememeber, quality over quantity regardless of the weight used!!!

[quote]Dominator wrote:
In terms of vertical jump performance, training with a narrow stance, Olympic squat, with with ankles dorsi flexed will yield greater vertical jump gains.

I’ve conducted several years of test data using various teams and athletes from various levels, and the data has pointed in this direction. I actually have a grad student working with me on this topic and if this subject gets approved, it likely will come out as published research.

As it stands, it appears the increase to vertical training this way has more to do with an increased ROM in the ankle joint which allows one to produce more force when vertical jumping. There are a few more issues that relate to flexibility as to why this is the case as well.

It’s all very interesting.

[/quote]

I have found that most people’s calves have 2 zones of force production-stretch to horizontal and horizontal to contracted. The force actually drops at the horizontal position, and it is important to push the second half of the ROM in jumping.

Just walking on your tiptoes with dumbells in hand can help this.

As far as full squats, I firmly believe in using full squats for verticle, but NOT EXPLODING until the midpoint.

I like to set up bands in the rack at 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up. Westside now uses something which I tried 6-7 years ago called abrupt loading. Basically you hand an anchor from a chain set to come off the ground at, or right before a critical point.

And anyway, you will never lift enough weight at the top of the squat to simulate the forces in jumping.

Typically a 400 pound squatter could lift 700 pounds in a 1/8 squat, and the forces involved in a vertical will be more than 700 for the last 1/8th ROM. If the stroke of a full squat is 24 inches, then a 1/8 squat will be 3 inches. A 200 pound man wanting a 36 inch vertical would need to extert over 2000 pounds of force for the last 1/8 of a squat range to jump 36 inches.