Slight Back Rounding On Deadlift

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
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Just curious if this is worrying or not, the video is of a max attempt, my current 1RM. Didn’t even plan to hit that weight on that day, the rounding I’m referring to is my tailbone slightly retroverting when I begin to move the bar from the floor - I don’t have other videos so I’m unsure if this happens on a regular basis with lighter weights too.
What I can say is that on average, my low back gets mild-average soreness from deadlifting, with hams and traps being more fatigued, if this is of any indication at all.

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Yes, it’s bad. Intravertebral discs don’t get sore, they just herniate without warning. Work on bracing, you aren’t producing enough tension before you pull and your spine is picking up the slack.

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Well, damn. I need to film the submaximal sets and see if it happens there too, I tend to push the PR sets in the 10-15 rep ranges but, to be fair, they’re at much lower weights - before attempting this 186kg pull, the heaviest I did in training was a PR set with 130-something kg and 1-2 triples at 150.
Also, is it possible that fatigue or the belt are contributing to loss of tension? I first attempted this weight beltless, and failed it, but somehow my back didn’t round, or at least, not this much. I have a video of it but will be able to upload only when I get back from work tonight

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Similar thread topic here and the info applies to you also.

Fatigue for sho could contribute. With high rep deadlifts it’s not uncommon for the back to round out. If you use a belt properly it should only help. If you are using a belt improperly or train mostly beltless it could help little to none or even make things worse e.g. if you hinge/bend at your belt/lower back.

Aside from the lower back rounding / snap city action I’m seeing that you’re having difficulty keeping the bar close to your body and there’s significant windmilling (where the bar kind of spins/rotates with the underhand end of the bar being pushed away from your body often due to using a funky mixed grip). Probably contributes to the back rounding and in it’s own right is an error which requires attention.

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You would probably be better off doing more sets with less reps, like 8 sets of 3 with 70% and 1-2 minute breaks or something along those lines, you can also work up to a moderately heavy set of 2-5 before that and gradually increase weight each week. High reps tend to lead to form breakdown and if your technique isn’t solid to begin with then it can get even worse in the end. Over 10 reps on any compound lift is overdoing it if you are training for PL, its more like cardio at that point.

Fatigue can definitely be a problem. The belt should you maintain tension unless you aren’t using it right (like using it in place of actually bracing).

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Here’s the video of the first (failed) attempt:

apologies for fucking around before pulling, I didn’t realize he was already filming.
The rounding seems (?) less pronounced here, I also guess that the rocking start I use to do makes it worse to keep tight (it has to do with the initial pull of the floor being my weakest point, see below).

It was weird indeed, haven’t used the belt for months (and rarely before) so I’m not sure at all if it helped or not.

Yep, that’s definitely a problem (and there are others too), I’ve been using mixed grip most of the time and at this weight it was the first time I felt the bar drifting away.
Isn’t it usually related to lats not being able to keep it close to you? At least, that’s what I usually read, even if I’ve been wondering if it could be the traps - I deadlifted on friday and had a heavy behind the neck press session on wednesday, so my traps were sore, more than usual, especially in the mid-low portion.

There is also the fact that lockout came incredibly late, the bar had already passed the knee when I started opening the hips. That’s something I noticed once I got past 180kg, in both 186kg attempts: I felt like the bar had barely broken the floor, while it really was at knee level already. But to me, it felt like it almost didn’t move, if my training partner didn’t tell me to lockout I would probably be still grinding. I guess this is why the Juggernaut videos suggest to start opening the hips before you actually feel the bar reaching the knees.

Also, from the thread you posted: leg strength (most likely) is lagging. Initial pull from the floor is the hardest part, it’s improved along with my squat/front squat numbers but it still feels disproportionately hard compared to the second portion of the lift. On average I know that if I can get the bar at knee level, I can finish the rep (except when I don’t realize it’s at knee level - see above). I have a cure made of moar squats and RDLs programmed for this.

I should have mentioned (my fault) - not really training for PL specifically, more generic strength training with bodybuilding stuff for accessories, some kind of powerbuilding or whatever. I’d rather not drop high rep deadlifts, pushing the PR sets and following with 1-2 heavier triples got my numbers moving after almost a year of stalling pretty bad.
Found the log of that day, what I did on deads is:

Worked up to amrap set at 130kg - 8 reps (capped at 8, it’s a weight I can do about 12 reps with)
144kg x3
152kg x3
158kg x2
166kg x2
172kg x1
180kg x1
186kg x1

I superset hanging leg raises between each set, rest time was of 2-3 minutes until the AMRAP set, then increased to 3-4-5 minutes between the triples, doubles and singles. The goal of the day was 180kg x1, which was pretty smooth and beltless.
I got carried away and did the 186kg but testing a true 1RM shouldn’t have happened and was an asshole move, between the 8 rep set, the supersetted hanging leg raises and the failed first attempt, I guess I was just too fatigued to do anything good, but wanted to get as close as possible to that 2.5bw weight like a moron.
I’ll need to film lighter sets and PR sets in the next weeks to see if I do it at every weight and if it happens on high rep sets too

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It would make more sense to do the heavy triples first, unless you are training for a contest where you do high rep deadlifts followed by heavy triples.

Whatever you are training for, you won’t get much better if you can’t maintain proper technique. Look at technical failure as failed reps, if you can’t lift it with good form then don’t. It’s only shifting the load to other muscles and your spine.

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Terrible idea, no wonder your technique is fucked. You can’t brace properly because your abs are fatigued when you need them.

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Get closer to the bar, flex your lats, and ditch the knee sleeves. You’ll be fine.

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Didn’t keep the bar close to ya. Once it got away from you it may as well have weighed 400kg.

Both are related to the lats but windmilling and not keeping the bar close to you are two separate things. The bar can be touching you but can still be windmilling unevenly if your lats are torquing asymmetrically . Windmilling can throw you off balance, cause you to exert force unevenly i.e. inefficiently and best case you waste energy righting everything.

I pull hook mostly now and even when I did use mixed I didn’t windmill so from personal experience I got nothing. However I’ve heard some shit about moving one hand out slightly. Whether it was the under or over hand and how far out I dunno lel. Probably just start with keeping the bar close for now and the rest will sort itself out. Probably best to not train in such a way as to cause your form to breakdown e.g. random maxing. For knees/hips locking out sequencing I also can’t relate. I set up well, maintain position off the floor and the knee lock timing sorts itself out.

Still no reason not to git gud with a belt. Let’s you do more work more saferer. More gains

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Haven’t seen what the others have said but the bar is starting miles out infront of you. Unless you have Bill Kazmaier’s upper back you have no chance but to battle it out anyway you can.

EDIT: your second video shows what happens with your lats being overcome and the weight shifting even further forward due to a poor starting position.

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I follow the 5/3/1 setup, that is, PR set first, Joker sets later. Jokers are are done with a 10% increase first set, and 5% second set, basically on the heaviest week the PR set is 95% of TM (80-85% usually), then Jokers are 105 and 110% of the TM - relatively heavy.
I tried for a cycle to ramp up to a heavy-ish single at 85-90%, then follow with volume work (either PR set or 5-10x3 and such) but it didn’t do much for me, back then I really couldn’t deadlift properly, I was stalling and I couldn’t find the right setup even on lighter sets for some reason. I might retry this way now

Doing 5 hanging leg raises after each set of deads has this much of an impact on fatigue? Genuinely asking, I know it’s not recommended for maximal strength training but thought it wasn’t big deal for generic strength training. I’ve watched Alpha’s video where he recommends to superset some pulling (chins, rows) with squat, benches and presses and thought some ab work between deads would be fine

Yes, this might sound dumb (dumber than the rest, even) but when I set up, I try to place midfoot under the bar, check from above, check from the sides, and it LOOKS like the bar is over midfoot to me - but it’s quite far in front of me, and I guarantee I don’t have weird long ass feet lol. I’ll try to simply get closer to the bar and see how the starting position feels.

While for flexing the lats… I’m a bit unsure about how to do it. I tried many cues (like squeezing the armpits) and if I try to actively flex them, I feel like I get slower, grindy, and actually end up losing tension. What I do now is to try and pull myself into position using the bar as an anchor, while opening the chest and pushing the scapulae against the ribcage, if this makes any sense.

I just got surgery for my thumb, but in a few weeks I want to start with hook grip too. Not concerned about bicep tear right now but I’m asymmetrical already enough as I am lol

Following 5/3/1 setup on this too, 6-9 weeks of accumulation, deload week, 3 weeks of intensification, deload week. The maxing wasn’t entirely random because I was meant to hit somewhere close to a 1RM, but more towards a 95% (basically… stopping at 180 like I should have done)

I might start wearing it on PR sets? The bulk of the work I do is very submaximal so I’m quite unsure when to start using a belt

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You can do “joker sets” first and then your AMRAP set, that is one of the options laid out in “Beyond 5/3/1”.

It certainly can’t help. Only you know how fatigued you are.

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Just throwing my two cents in here. Someone that helped me when it comes to bracing for the deadlift is getting a big belly of air and bracing my core when I was standing. Get more air/solid brace that way compared to doing it at the bottom position, worked better for me anyway. I can usually get between 3-4 reps in on this first breath.

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Your back was never set rigid at all right off the floor. As a result the bar ended up inches away from your knees. Back in the 80’s a guy named Tom McLaughlin analyzed the deadlift and found that each inch of distance from the center of mass produced the effect of adding 25% of the bar weight to the lift.

Find some coaching and QUICKLY because you are on the highway to snap town.