Skipping Breakfast is the Way to Go? WTF

Holy references batman! Seriously, 82 references for that article?

[quote]beaul wrote:
The reasoning behind skipping breakfast and the insulin spike is because not only is muscle sensitive and ready to uptake the nutrients. Fat is also primed in the morning. But as the day goes on, like you said, both become less sensitive. But where “we” win is, we train hard priming only the muscle to be insulin sensitive. So you eat the majority of carbs post training to take advantage of this.

[/quote]

Great job (honestly) noting the fact that a MAJOR part of insulin sensitivity is that of the adipocytes. So many people are unaware of this being a primary mark of insulin sensitivity that the discussion becomes confusing when talking about sedentary individuals’ ability for high insulin sensitivity in a fasted state.

I do have a question about your suggestion that there are drastically altering levels (depending on diurnal rhythms) of insulin sensitivity within adipocytes. Could you point me to a study (more curious than confrontational)? From everything I have read, fluctuations in insulin sensitivity is mainly determined (when there is no sign of metabolic syndromes) by skeletal muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, muscle protein degradation, and a few hormones highly related to these states. As far as I know, adipocytes remain insulin sensitive without drastic diurnally-based fluctuations.

That being said, when there is skeletal muscle protein degradation and/or glycogen depletion (as I noted is present in weight trained individuals), the insulin response tends to be significantly less adipogenic and more anabolic on skeletal muscle and/or will shuttle glucose into the liver and muscle as glycogen.

When gaining muscle (bulking), some level of adipogenic activity is the norm (thus the “offseason bber” thread), but the ideal is to increase the ratio of anabolism to adipogenesis, meaning maintaining a low level of fat gain with every pound of muscle gained.

Insulin can both increase fat mass, as well as muscle mass, but timing higher levels of CHO (and therefore higher levels of insulin) along with insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle is the very same reason that pre-post-peri training protocols are used.

That is why, as you pointed out, post w/o CHO and PRO have been recommended for so long, do to both the ability to cease muscle catabolism and to increase PRO synthesis, not completely unlike what happens in a trained individual upon eating breakfast.

Of course, there is more and more experimentation with these old dogmas, and I am always curious to read about them and experiment with them for myself (though breakfast is a must, even if it were to be strongly suggested to not be optimal).

I really do enjoy this kind of discussion.

MID

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:
Damn, I read the article a few hours too late and had to go regurgitate my breakfast so I could still be down with the latest and greatest research. Ahhhh…feeling much better now.
[/quote]

Hilarious, Serge ^^

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:
Personally, the period between 6-10 in the morning seems to be the only time of day when I am NEVER hungry.[/quote]

Though individual physiology doesn’t vary as much as many suggest, I am starting to wonder about all of the Hate-breakfasters out there. I’m the only real breakfast person I know, everyone else seeming to hardly have interest and just choke it down “for their health”. I wonder to what extent the catecholamines present upon waking (which tend to be fairly high) limits the extent to which many people are hungry in the AM, and also to what extent they benefit from nutrients.

With the Anaconda protocol and more speculation around catecholamine interferences in nutrient uptake and partitioning, could it be that this affects individuals response to food upon waking?

Interesting…

MID

[quote]Icarus wrote:
I was under that assumption for a long time too. I have been doing IF for the past 2 weeks and it seems to be working. I don’t eat my first meal until 1:30 in the afternoon. [/quote]

This. 16/8 intermittent fasting is going awesome for me as well. Your body gets used to not eating in the morning, and frankly I don’t really mind being hungry any more. The biggest benefit for me is that I’ve gotten back so much time and stress that I used to spend worrying about eating a meal every 2-3 hours. Now I just roll out of bed, grab some coffee and hit the road. From what I’ve seen it’s viable for bulking as well as cutting.

[quote]midnightamnesia wrote:

[quote]beaul wrote:
The reasoning behind skipping breakfast and the insulin spike is because not only is muscle sensitive and ready to uptake the nutrients. Fat is also primed in the morning. But as the day goes on, like you said, both become less sensitive. But where “we” win is, we train hard priming only the muscle to be insulin sensitive. So you eat the majority of carbs post training to take advantage of this.

[/quote]

Great job (honestly) noting the fact that a MAJOR part of insulin sensitivity is that of the adipocytes. So many people are unaware of this being a primary mark of insulin sensitivity that the discussion becomes confusing when talking about sedentary individuals’ ability for high insulin sensitivity in a fasted state.

I do have a question about your suggestion that there are drastically altering levels (depending on diurnal rhythms) of insulin sensitivity within adipocytes. Could you point me to a study (more curious than confrontational)? From everything I have read, fluctuations in insulin sensitivity is mainly determined (when there is no sign of metabolic syndromes) by skeletal muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, muscle protein degradation, and a few hormones highly related to these states. As far as I know, adipocytes remain insulin sensitive without drastic diurnally-based fluctuations.

I really do enjoy this kind of discussion.

MID[/quote]

I was just trying to clarify the reasoning of John Keifer on why one would even want to skip breakfast.

Sadly, his carb backloading article on EFS didn’t list any references. http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/carb-back-loading/

I would also like to see the studies done in reference to insulin sensitivity at different times during the day.

Shouldn’t the muscles still be primed for uptake more-so than fat up to 48 hours post workout? Or at least until glycogen stores are topped off.

If I wake up early (5-6 am) I need a couple hours before I can really eat, but If I wake up around 7 I’m already hungry. I have to eat breakfast or I’m starving by lunch time.

[quote]beaul wrote:
Sadly, his carb backloading article on EFS didn’t list any references. http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/carb-back-loading/
[/quote]

Thanks for the article beaul. Even w/o refs, it’s a good read.

[quote]beaul wrote:
I would also like to see the studies done in reference to insulin sensitivity at different times during the day.

Shouldn’t the muscles still be primed for uptake more-so than fat up to 48 hours post workout? Or at least until glycogen stores are topped off.
[/quote]

There’s some debate about this right now. Research suggests that the BMR is increased for 48 hours, though every study I have read uses untrained, and often older participants. Many of the same (and other) studies support that markers of protein synthesis are elevated for a similar time frame (between 24-48 hrs). Some recent studies (still looking to re-find these, will post when I do) have called this into question, lowering the time frame to only a few hours post training.

I think one issue here is that researchers make little acknowledgment to differences in exercise stimuli, and there has not been a good study that I have seen comparing elevated protein synthesis across different stimuli with a good N.

In other words, one group of researchers may say PS is elevated for 24 hrs based upon participants doing leg extensions, while another may say 48+ hrs based upon leg press. I have yet to see a study using a heavy free weight movement, such as the squat, in regards to elevated PS.

Another thing here is glycogen synthesis, which is highly elevated for aprox 5 hrs after training, though this, too, is debatable and not well studied.

Some studies to this end are:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/smd/2003/00000033/00000002/art00004

http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/52A/6/M352.abstract

So yeah, researchers need to do a lot more work before we can get a clear picture of athletes insulin sensitivity/response to nutrients based upon exercise, etc.

Sadly there is almost zero money for such research, as it does not have a medical application (well, not a marketable one, that is).

MID

People talking about not being hungry in the morning? How the hell?
When I wake up I’m in absolute pain with hunger.
Seriously though aside from training how can someone be in a good mood and perform optimally at work/school without eating breakfast. IMO eating it outweighs any fat loss benefits

[quote]midnightamnesia wrote:

[quote]beaul wrote:
Sadly, his carb backloading article on EFS didn’t list any references. http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/carb-back-loading/
[/quote]

Thanks for the article beaul. Even w/o refs, it’s a good read.

[/quote]

Refs are included in the follow up article.

dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=370

I think a few people in the past have been successful at losing fat while eating breakfast. I could be wrong, though.

[quote]catalyst wrote:
I think a few people in the past have been successful at losing fat while eating breakfast. I could be wrong, though. [/quote]

Yes and people also used to cross the country by horse and buggy.

What would be wrong with trying to optimize the process of losing fat and gaining muscle?

I have not had breakfast in over 10 years, dont really get hungry till maybe 11, putting the fat loss issues aside i felt i have made good gains.
Having said that, perhaps my progress would be greater with the addition of an extra meal a day.

On the topic of skipping breakfast and carb back-loading, what would one’s pre-workout and during-workout nutrition look like then? Wouldn’t one’s strength and performance in the gym drastically decrease due to lack of calories and carbs ingested?

[quote]chawlsrules wrote:
On the topic of skipping breakfast and carb back-loading, what would one’s pre-workout and during-workout nutrition look like then? Wouldn’t one’s strength and performance in the gym drastically decrease due to lack of calories and carbs ingested?[/quote]

While always one for breakfast, I have been either fasted (5+ hours w/o food due to work), or carb depleted (the AD, keto diets, etc.) many times pre wo.

During the fasted state, I find lower energy at first, but by the time I have warmed up I am “in it”. I have been surprised by my abilities even in this state.

In the CHO depleted state (I was on the AD for 9 months), I have found myself to preform excellently. While pumps have been somewhat diminished in such states, I can preform well until the end, with less nausea than if I had pre wo CHO.

In fact, while at least 1 of my posts was in defense (scientifically) of high CHO pre wo, in the AAM I always do better with lower CHO if I am training early (<8:00).

Still, I find that my best performance most of the day is with CHO, PRO, and often lipids, all together in one delicious mix :slight_smile:

MID

[quote]midnightamnesia wrote:

[quote]chawlsrules wrote:
On the topic of skipping breakfast and carb back-loading, what would one’s pre-workout and during-workout nutrition look like then? Wouldn’t one’s strength and performance in the gym drastically decrease due to lack of calories and carbs ingested?[/quote]

While always one for breakfast, I have been either fasted (5+ hours w/o food due to work), or carb depleted (the AD, keto diets, etc.) many times pre wo.

During the fasted state, I find lower energy at first, but by the time I have warmed up I am “in it”. I have been surprised by my abilities even in this state.

In the CHO depleted state (I was on the AD for 9 months), I have found myself to preform excellently. While pumps have been somewhat diminished in such states, I can preform well until the end, with less nausea than if I had pre wo CHO.

In fact, while at least 1 of my posts was in defense (scientifically) of high CHO pre wo, in the AAM I always do better with lower CHO if I am training early (<8:00).

Still, I find that my best performance most of the day is with CHO, PRO, and often lipids, all together in one delicious mix :slight_smile:

MID

[/quote]

Great! Thanks for your help. How long should one stick to this kind of dieting (ie skipping breakfast)? I think it was no more than 2-3 months at a time?

[quote]beaul wrote:

I would also like to see the studies done in reference to insulin sensitivity at different times during the day.

Shouldn’t the muscles still be primed for uptake more-so than fat up to 48 hours post workout? Or at least until glycogen stores are topped off.
[/quote]

Can’t say that I looked at the references, but there are multiple articles about back-loading on his blog. As far as insulin sensitivity dropping in both muscle and fat over the course of the day, I took his word for it.

He does mention the 48-hour window when talking about off days. He suggests that because of said window, it’s still advantageous to back-load carbs the day after a workout. Muscles will be relatively sensitive to insulin all day, whereas fat will still only be so in the morning.

Obviously I can’t go into great depth about this myself, I’m just piecing together the relevant info from his articles.

You know what I notice among a lot of overweight people? they skip breakfast… just sayin

for those not hungry at breakfast, it’s more likely b/c you haven’t eaten breakfast in a long time.

Eat breakfast every day for 3 weeks, then report back after missing it one morning. You’ll be hungry.

[quote]chawlsrules wrote:
On the topic of skipping breakfast and carb back-loading, what would one’s pre-workout and during-workout nutrition look like then? Wouldn’t one’s strength and performance in the gym drastically decrease due to lack of calories and carbs ingested?[/quote]

Glycogen stores should still be full (or close enough) from all the back-loaded carbs. A P/F meal or protein shake should be fine an hour or so before lifting.

As far as the products here go, I’ve been using Anaconda about 15 minutes into the workout. Kiefer talks about ingesting carbs around that time, which I extrapolated to mean anything insulinogenic. I do MAG-10 about an hour after lifting, and then my post-workout meal 30 minutes thereafter. Although the pumps were good doing the pre-workout Anaconda protocol, I found the brain fog to be counter-productive. I’m much sharper and “in the zone” taking everything during and after the workout.

I imagine the guys that do well with all the pre-workout carbs (and breakfast carbs) are the same guys that handle carbs well in general.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
You know what I notice among a lot of overweight people? they skip breakfast… just sayin[/quote]

They also eat lots of Twinkies, Big Macs, and drink soda like no other. Nowhere in that article suggests that you can eat whatever you want while skipping breakfast and still lose fat. You still need to eat a good combination of P/F and P/C meals.