T Nation

Single Compound Cycle?


#1

I've had trouble w/ seizures. Out of 2 orders which should have resulted in 3 packages, I've managed to get one. It is an overseas distributor that is well know on this site so I doubt the problem is them. I have waited a long time between orders and been careful in varying my methods so that the orders are not obviously linked. I think the issue is just shit luck.

The one item received is DBol. I am not interested in a DBOL only cycle. The idea of getting another partial order that results in an unusable cycle is rather annoying. What I would like to do is build a cycle based on a single compound being successfully delivered.

I workout at my corporate gym so I need to keep somewhat low key. As such I'd prefer not to bloat and would like to stick with short cycles. I think this works well since I am talking about not needing ancillaries anyway.

I'm thinking my best bet is Masteron. The prop ester should work well for short cycles. No estrogen worries and low HPTA impact combined w/ a short cycle should make a natural recovery plausible.

I have also considered Anavar only. I know both are pricey. I am unsure of the relative effectiveness of each per dollar spent. The Masteron seems more attractive because if I can get it, then test prop becomes a possible second compound. In low dose short cycles, I would hope that Masteron could be a sufficient ancillary.

Is anyone else going through this? Any ideas or comments are appreciated.


#2

Don't count on natural recovery.

That's simply a bad plan.

Get a SERM and do it right.


#3

Masteron is not going to be anything NEAR a successful ancillary.

I understand your thinking, and due to the emphasis of the 'anti-aromatase' effects that ALL Masteron and Proviron profiles seem to have.. i know why.

However, you should know that this effect of Masteron isnt actually Anti-Aromatase at all.. it is that it has affinity for the aromatase enzyme, but no activity - so while it attaches to the enzyme, it doesnt aromatase.
Now, when stacked with an aromatising hormone, such as Test it is true that it will bind to some aromatase meaning LESS of the Test aromatises - however, to expect this to reduce the aromatisation of test to any useful degree without an AI is ignorant.

Not only is it NOT going to reduce the likely hood of gyno or excess water in all but the least sensitive, but the Oestrogen level needs to be controlled properly to avoid other sexual, physical and psychological side effects of the female sex hormones.

I feel for you in your problem, but it is no reason to run a poorly stacked cycle.

There is no problem with running one compound - and IME even something like Deca (and Proviron) is cool, or i would expect a gram of Primo to be nice alone too.. but you would still need SERM's for PCT for any cycle IME.

JMO :wink:


#4

Damn! Okay, I'll definitely drop the idea of Mast being able to offset the E from Test prop. I'll wait for a real SERM.

I had thought of NPP but thought there wold be more sides to worry about. I looked at Primo but being a longer ester (enathate?) that it might not be useful for a short cycle.

Is the idea that Mast has a minimal impact on the HPTA and natural T production also overstated?

If it has a low impact I was hoping that a low dose (50-100mg EOD, 2on-3off), could still be useful since it may not really suppress natural production. Then use OTC PCT products (Trib, ZMA, etc.) until I could get something real. Got a feeling from Bonez comment that I'm probably still being naive.


#5

Ya.. the results likely seen from 175-350mg/wk of mast over a few short weeks will be minimal to say the least - but IIRC this would have less impact on the HPTA than the same level of Tren or test.. but with both of those having significantly better results.

It is generally well understood that most AAS are less suppressive in very low doses - and the popular belief that Var is a low HPTA suppressive drug was based on trials involving 10mg/day IIRC.. fuck all in laymans terms!
The same could be said for IM Test at 20mg/wk..!

However i personally believe that if one is to maximise the benefits of AAS, they need to fully grasp and embrace the inhibition that will come with effective doses, and recover to their best ability AFTERwards.

So this means possible use of HCG during a cycle (even multiple 2-on/4-off runs), AI use, SERM use in the off periods.. and maybe Caber for NPP..

Why are you looking for minimal HPTA impact? i thought it was to cut back on PCT? This is not a good idea (as bonez suggested) and is simply inhibiting gains in favour of laziness IMO. Run a fully suppressive, heavy dosed short (4-6wk) cycle and recover with a SERM. Done! :wink:


#6

Masteron will shut down your HPTA (a dose small enough to avoid shutdown would likely be pointless for physique enhancement). Once you are shutdown it is necessary to use a SERM for PCT. Some drugs may be considered to be more suppressive than others but that refers to how quickly they completely shutdown the HPTA and how hard recovery becomes. Either way, once the user is shutdown a SERM should be used to restart natural T production.

I think a simple Test P cycle would be fine. Add the masteron if you want. Use an AI on cycle. Use a SERM for PCT.

EDITED


#7

This would depend on the dose and duration of use.

At that dose you would just be spinning your wheels. For a two on, three off cycle, you would want blood levels to be very high, around 1000mg week. You would also want to frontload to get blood levels up quickly. You can read more about this protocol on MesoRX and through plenty of post right here.


#8

OK - I'm giving up on the one compound alone idea. I'm still thinking of Masteron. Short ester is still nice for the short cycle and no need for AI. Nolva will be added for SERM PCT. This still keeps my product needs low with a useable cycle.

The front load is a great idea. I'll go for a higher dose (400-500mgs/wk). Since it is a higher dose and real PCT, I may opt for a slightly longer short cycle (3on-4off).

Providing I get enough Nolva to have for a future cycle, I'm thinking I might shoot for 2 products again (Test P and Adex) for the next one.

Thank you all for the input.


#9

I expect you will need a source of estrogen if using Masteron at high dose. For example Dianabol or testosterone.

(Reason being high dose Masteron would, I expect, reduce natural estrogen production to insufficient and below-bottom-end-of-normal levels.)


#10

Plus if you increase the use to 3 weeks, you may as well run 6wks IMO - you will get a hell of a lot better results, but little further suppression - IIRC ~3 weeks for most AAS is the point where both the pituitary AND the Hypothalamus are suppressed.

The whole point of 2on, 4off is to avoid the third week of suppression! If you change this well thought out and deliberate protocol - it ISNT the same protocol!

Either run Test prop with an AI for 2 weeks, at a dose of at least 700mg/wk, with 4 off utilising a short bridge and decent SERM usage in the off periods, AND repeat at least 3 times.. (for a total of 6 weeks 'on' and 8-12 weeks 'off' - OR run a single 6-8 week cycle, which will give more in less time.

The 2 week cycle ISNT designed to be run with less products than any other cycle primarily, i am not sure where you got that from.
It was designed to give results with as little suppression of the HPTA as possible. It does but only over several cycles - one of these runs will do very little from my understanding.

B


#11

Indeed, the intent is for it to run with serious doses, of about a gram per week or more. An exception is if trenbolone is used, as it is especially potent and could reasonably be counted, so to speak, as more milligrams effectively than it is in terms of weight, but even so, 50 mg/day TA plus 50 mg/day Dianabol still comes out to 700 mg total per week. If you count trenbolone even as double, then that would work out to being "like" a more-typical gram-per-week program.

If someone wants to play in shallower waters such as the 500 mg/week level, I would recommend going 8 weeks.

As to how much retained gains from a single cycle, as with any cycle this depends on how much progress has been made on steroids thus far.

Where there's still a lot of room for improvement, it's not the case that with these dosages a single run must give little results. Look for example at the case documented over at Meso. True it's a first-cycle result. It is however typical for a first cycle, and the first few following cycles also give considerable increases. It isn't a cherry-picked case: it's the only one that I ever had photographed, tape-measured, 1RM's taken, etc.

I wanted to track multiple cycles with the same subject but he went and messed up his knees (reversibly but it took a while), then went to medical school out of state and made that impossible. How inconsiderate.


#12

No, you are right - i just looked over the 4 week results again, as it had been a long time - and his gains were substantial - IME they were good for a longer cycle even, let alone excellent for such a relatively short time on.

I know what you mean that the results are going to vary greatly depending on one's experience with AAS - ie. their sensitivity to high dose androgens etc.. because if i tried to run that cycle, i could only wish for those results these days.

:wink:


#13

I look at it as being that there is some limit -- we don't know what it is, but some limit -- to what a given person's genetics allow even given best-possible training and nutrition and all the time possible (till too old), for a given drug level. Or for that matter with ANY level of existing drugs.

For example, obviously 500 lb in ripped condition would be a figure beyond what say even Ronnie Coleman could attain given all that. We don't know the right figure, but there is some upper limit.

And the closer one is to that max-possible potential, whatever it may be, the slower the approach to it. Or the further from it, the faster that gains can be.

I don't see it as the drugs doing less as they push one to yet higher levels, albeit more slowly for the above reason. Not at a cellular level anyway: I expect they're still every bit as stimulatory of protein synthesis.


#14

I've been revisiting alot of material to help revise my idea (including Bill's 2-On, 4-Off cycle article). Where I was starting to consider extending to 3 weeks... well... I've stopped considering it (thanks again). I'm still stuck on the Masteron idea. Please recall from my original post that I am rather product challenged (except for DBol).

So my current idea is to put together a 2-On, 4-Off w/ based on 1g Mast With the Mast Prop having a longer half life than , I was thinking of having a larger front load and ending injections 1 day earlier. Something along the lines of

day 1: 500mg
day 2,4,6,8,10: 100mg

Without an AI like Cytadren but using Mast which has some SERM like effect, I am not certain what the dbol schedule should be like. I'm guessing that the Mast is not going to work to the same degree for controlling estrogen so maybe cut the dose in half? Something like 25mg/day days 1-14 then clean weeks 3-6?

Also, would the use of clomid be unnecessary for the first 2 weeks due to the use of Mast?

Thanks again for all the input. Sorry if I'm being a pain but I'm trying to understand how to fit these together.


#15

If your intent with the frontload is simply to get to your planned ongoing level promptly, then this is very unbalanced. For your planned mere 50 mg/day (average) level, my guess would be a 150 mg frontload.

It could be your idea is to have more kick at the front out of having a suspicion that if you ran stronger levels once into it, it would hang on too long. I don't think that would be the case. While I have not done it, if doing it I would do it at a 300 mg frontload and 100 mg per day.

There's no evidence Masteron has a SERM-like effect.

If using Clomid during the cycle then an antiaromatase will be unnecessary and there would be no reason (for most) to run the Dianabol at anything other than 50 mg/day.

As to whether Clomid would be unnecessary for gyno purposes with the Dianabol, on account of the Masteron, many can use that much Dianabol with no anti-estrogenic mechanism in play of any kind and do fine. Some others cannot and I doubt the Masteron would change that.