T Nation

Simultaneously Lowering T Dose and Lowering E2


#1

This may be an exercise in academics. I'm having lab work done today. I'm certain my E2 levels are up based on symptoms. So I'm very familiar with @KSman formula for figuring out how much more Adex is necessary to get to 22. However, I'm on a highish dose of T cyp. At 200mg/wk in two divided sq injections. Depending on my FT numbers, I may want to reduce my T cyp dose AND increase my Adex dose. Is there a formula for this process? Let's say I reduce my T cyp dose by 20%, is there a way to adjust the Adex dose to account for that 20% reduction in T cyp?


#2

Remembering that this is a linear relationship, you can stack two calculations at once and get a good result.

Your change in T dose is factor Y, could be 1.2 to increase by 20% or 0.8 to decrease by 20%
Your E2 lab is newE2
Old Adex dose is Adex-old-dose

Adex-new-dose = Adex-old-dose * Y * newE2 / 22pg/ml
or in this case
Adex-new-dose = Adex-old-dose * 0.8 * newE2 / 22pg/ml

Years ago I was increasing T and correcting E2 and stacked both calculation and next labs I was on target.


#3

@KSman thanks for the answer. What is a good FT number to shoot for?


#4

Got my labs back. I knew my E2 was high, but I didn't think it would be that high. My FT is also way too high. I'll be reducing my T cyp from 200mg/wk to 120mg/wk. I believe that will reduce my E2 to 22 without altering my Adex dose.

New Adex = old Adex X new T cyp dose % X 35/21

0.48 = 0.5 X 0.6 X 1.6

So reducing my T cyp dose to 60% of what I was taking should allow me to keep my Adex dose the same.

I'll re-check levels in about a month unless I'm feeling awesome, then I'll wait a few months.


#5

BTW, @ksman, how long will it take for my E2 levels to drop to 22? I assume it's gonna take a couple of weeks??


#6

Where did your ft and e2 look like @ 200mg/week?


#7

From my personal experience and reports of others: When E2 levels are higher and guys feel down from that, often AI can have profound effects in 7-10 days. While none have had labs done in that time frame, it is safe to conclude that E2 changes were significant in that time frame. So that is an indication of the time scale.


#8

FT was 655.6 47-244 pg/ml
E2 was 35 0-39 pg/ml


#9

I'm wondering if mine will take longer to reach optimal levels as I'm not increasing the AI but reducing the T cyp.


#10

@KSman I feel like I know the answer, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Since my FT levels are so high, could I skip my T cyp injection on Wednesday and still take my Adex to help speed up the process of lowering my E2?

Or, can I temporarily increase my Adex dose for a week or so to help reduce the E2 levels more quickly?


#11

So it's Wednesday and I decided to take my new reduced dose of T cyp (60mg) and slightly increase my Adex dose to 0.7mg. This is my attempt to speed up the process of reducing my E2 from 35 down to 22. I'll repeat this protocol on Sunday and take it from there. I certainly don't want to crash my E2, but I don't want it to take weeks to optimize my E2 levels either. Once I start feeling back to the way I was when my E2 was good, I'll reduce my Adex to 0.5mg at the time of T cyp injections.


#12

You are aware of the overshoot possibilities, delay in terminal serum anastrozole levels etc. So its all an educated guess. You will probably have a good idea about how this is working in 4-5 days. In any case, its a good learning experience!


#13

I'm aware that there is a possibility of overshooting. Not at all familiar with the terminal serum anastrozole levels.

After deciding that my FT was too high and my E2 was elevated, I used your calculation to simultaneously reduce my T cyp dose and come up with a new Adex dose. For me, it turned out that reducing my T cyp to 60mg twice weekly allowed me to keep my Adex dose at 0.5mg twice weekly. So I thought if I just up my Adex to 0.7mg twice weekly for a week or two I could accelerate the process of reducing my E2 from 35 to 22. I will monitor my symptoms and adjust my Adex dose accordingly. Hopefully, I'll hit the target of 22 soon!


#14

How is that feeling?

We never do labs for serum anastrozole, but need to be aware of how levels move with dosing and the time delays for levels to reach a final/terminal/steady-state.


#15

I'm feeling better. Libido is up, morning wood is back. I still don't feel like I'm at the target of 22 yet, but I'm certainly on my way. I inject again tomorrow afternoon. I'll stay with 0.7mg of adex again and see how I feel. I don't want to overshoot 22 and cause a low E2 situation, that's why I choose 0.7mg biweekly for now. I'm hoping that once I get to the optimal levels I will be able to maintain that level with 60mg of T cyp and 0.5mg of adex twice weekly. I'm also injecting 250iu of hcg E3D.

I also have no plans to do labs again anytime soon. I'd like to put it off for a couple of months as these are out of pocket for me.