T Nation

Simple Question: 12wk Plan


#1

I need to be in tip-top aesthetic shape the first week in February; 12 weeks from now.

I'm currently 6' tall, 205 at %18 or so (veins visible in shoulders, but no abs visible). I have on hand 12,000 mgs of Test E, 50 x 10 mg dbol, and 60 x 25 mg Anavar (tested posi for Anavar using Labmax). I've done a few cycles before including 2 on/2 off and a typical 8 week, 600 mg test cycle.

As I see it, here are my choices:

1) Restrict diet for 4 weeks eg: V-Diet or RFL.
Then do an 8 week cycle that would look like....?

or,

2) Start a cycle now and hope to train and inject my way to leaness.
That cycle would look like....?

Any other ideas?


#2

2 is a bad idea, and generally speaking, bodyfat should be reduced first. ‘No abs visible’ is a bad sign, particularly if you’re training for aesthetics. I don’t know why you have to look good the first week in February, but if you value your long-term goals above short-term goals, 1 is a better option.

1 is better, but why are you limiting yourself to an 8 weeks cycle? 12+ is better for running Test E.

Here’s what I would do with what you’ve got, assuming you don’t want to add anything else to the cycle:

Weeks 1-12: 1000mg Test E every week
First 25 days: 20mg Dbol every day
Last 30 days: 50mg Anavar every day

If for whatever reason your short-term goals really do matter that much, start the cycle now and get your diet in check ASAP. This cycle should get you where you want to be if diet and training are where they need to be.

This last part should be addressed as well… You’ve run 2 cycles, and you’re in terrible shape. 6’0, 205, and 18% bodyfat is pathetic. It’s not even good for someone who’s not on gear. You HAVE to get the non-drug aspect better. If you care about aesthetics, you should never let your bodyfat get so high, and while you’re using the drugs, you should be gaining substantially more lean body mass.


#3

buy more var, forget the dbol, run test and var the whole time restricting your calories like fuck. It’s your only chance.


#4

looks like both of you advocate being on for 12 weeks. I currently maintain at 2700 cals/day and bump it up to 3200 when I was on. If I restrict, should I stay at 2700 or cut down even more? Will test e work in the face of overall calorie restriction? I’m guessing keep protein high and cut fat and some carbs…

and yes, flip, i have let myself go aesthetically, but i’m still much stronger than i was when i started. maybe a small consolation, but there you go.

I’ve been volunteered to be a model for a friends graduate school art project. It’s due in May sometime, but he’ll need me to model the first week in Feb. And I’m a vain fucker.


#5

[quote]Yogi wrote:
buy more var, forget the dbol, run test and var the whole time restricting your calories like fuck. It’s your only chance.[/quote]

I assumed ‘buying more things’ was not one of my options :wink:

I agree with this. I’d also up the Var dose to 100/ED if given that option.


#6

I consider myself fortunate to get real Anavar to begin with, I’m not sure if I’ll be as lucky the second time.

Restrict cals more than my natty maintenance levels? Keep protein high I assume.


#7

[quote]Test Icicle wrote:
I consider myself fortunate to get real Anavar to begin with, I’m not sure if I’ll be as lucky the second time.

Restrict cals more than my natty maintenance levels? Keep protein high I assume.[/quote]
What are your current macros at 2700? And your training split, including cardio if any?

What flip laid out is what I would go with if buying more is not an option


#8

[quote]Test Icicle wrote:
I need to be in tip-top aesthetic shape the first week in February; 12 weeks from now.

I’m currently 6’ tall, 205 at %18 or so (veins visible in shoulders, but no abs visible). I have on hand 12,000 mgs of Test E, 50 x 10 mg dbol, and 60 x 25 mg Anavar (tested posi for Anavar using Labmax). I’ve done a few cycles before including 2 on/2 off and a typical 8 week, 600 mg test cycle.

As I see it, here are my choices:

  1. Restrict diet for 4 weeks eg: V-Diet or RFL.
    Then do an 8 week cycle that would look like…?

or,

  1. Start a cycle now and hope to train and inject my way to leaness.
    That cycle would look like…?

Any other ideas?

[/quote]

well, i think you need to answer some harsh questions about this…

if you don’t have abs right now, you prolly need to lose close to 20 lbs, without losing muscle. this is doable, but you’re gonna need to reign in the eating/partying over the holidays…

your diet will need to account for this loss in bodyweight, as well as most likely using multiple training sessions (AM cardio, PM weights)

using AAS on cycle will obviously help you maintain muscle and lose fat a little easier, but you’re going to need to look more at stuff like T3/clen to actually increase metabolic rate.

i would simply go with test around 600 mg/wk, and go on 2 week on/2 week off rotations of clen/T3 (which is pretty easy to get through research companies).


#9

200g P/200g C/ 150g F is a general day. I’m lower carb on rest days, higher on training days.

I train 4-5 days a week, hitting 30-40 sets a day. Split is back/chest/legs/shoulders although I focus more on movements than strict body parts. Cardio consists of doing my workout faster, lol. Oh, and two days a week of rec indoor soccer.


#10

cyco: thanks for weighing in. I will put anything in my body…except clen. I’ve had 2 bad experiences with it, from different RC’s and won’t use it again. I actually just threw away $120 worth a few weeks ago. I will, however, eat ephedrine and caffeine like it’s going out of style. Cutting back for the holidays is no problem; I’m very goal-oriented. Not having a goal is how I got to this current, sorry state.

I’m still a bit confused about what I should be doing. There’s really no consensus yet, is there? Should I be cutting cals because I need to lose some fluff or boosting to get the most out of my cycle?


#11

[quote]Test Icicle wrote:
cyco: thanks for weighing in. I will put anything in my body…except clen. I’ve had 2 bad experiences with it, from different RC’s and won’t use it again. I actually just threw away $120 worth a few weeks ago. I will, however, eat ephedrine and caffeine like it’s going out of style. Cutting back for the holidays is no problem; I’m very goal-oriented. Not having a goal is how I got to this current, sorry state.

I’m still a bit confused about what I should be doing. There’s really no consensus yet, is there? Should I be cutting cals because I need to lose some fluff or boosting to get the most out of my cycle? [/quote]

Whichever produces the desired aesthetic. No one can definitely answer this for you. What I’m hearing from you is that you’re going to want to have visible abs. This will require a calorie reduction. If it were me, I would start on a reduced calorie diet, and work from there, based on how fast you lose the fat you’re trying to shed. You could consider upping the calories towards the end of the cycle if you get lean early on.


#12

I would do exactly what flipcollar layed out. But I’d also ask Shadow Pro and get his take, and listen to him above anyone else on here.

If you want to look good, you need to lose the body fat. Bulking would be a terrible idea for this timeline. Cutting will produce the biggest visual improvement in the shortest time. If you’re willing to put anything in to your body, do DNP. Look up dinitro for it. You will need to be in about a 1000 calorie deficit to get decently ripped abs. That’s 2 lbs/wk.

I think it’s ridiculous to do this for a friend’s benefit. You shouldn’t touch steroids unless you have serious goals, which you sure as shit wouldn’t abandon for some bullshit art project (no offense but really). Even if those goals are purely aesthetics, you would be much better off focusing on the long term as flip explained.


#13

[quote]Test Icicle wrote:
200g P/200g C/ 150g F is a general day. I’m lower carb on rest days, higher on training days.

I train 4-5 days a week, hitting 30-40 sets a day. Split is back/chest/legs/shoulders although I focus more on movements than strict body parts. Cardio consists of doing my workout faster, lol. Oh, and two days a week of rec indoor soccer.[/quote]

Well if this was were me these are the immediate changes I would make…

Keep cals at 2700 for first 1-2 weeks
Increase workload by throwing a HIIT session into your week
Cut fats in half and increase carbs

In my opinion it’s always better to do more work than to take calories away, if possible.


#14

[quote]joyfull wrote:
I would do exactly what flipcollar layed out. But I’d also ask Shadow Pro and get his take, and listen to him above anyone else on here.

If you want to look good, you need to lose the body fat. Bulking would be a terrible idea for this timeline. Cutting will produce the biggest visual improvement in the shortest time. If you’re willing to put anything in to your body, do DNP. Look up dinitro for it. You will need to be in about a 1000 calorie deficit to get decently ripped abs. That’s 2 lbs/wk.

I think it’s ridiculous to do this for a friend’s benefit. You shouldn’t touch steroids unless you have serious goals, which you sure as shit wouldn’t abandon for some bullshit art project (no offense but really). Even if those goals are purely aesthetics, you would be much better off focusing on the long term as flip explained.

[/quote]

I don’t think I could in good conscience ever recommend DNP to anyone. Even someone who was “willing to do anything” . It’s pretty scary shit.


#15

The risks of DNP are overstated. It has an unwarranted reputation on forums for being extremely dangerous, but you would really have to be a total fucking idiot to die from hyperthermia. Of course, there are many potential such idiots that see these forums so maybe it is a bit irresponsible. Taken at sane doses, it’s safer than Clen. And far more effective.

It’s a bit like everyone freaking out about a plant (cannabis) because it’s illegal. But then they go and take exotic prescription medications like it’s no big deal because it’s legal. DNP was made illegal around the same time as cannabis btw. I would do DNP way before clen, liposuction, stomach stapling/bands, and it’s even a healthier option than staying obese if someone lacked the willpower and discipline to diet/exercise.

The danger is that it has a delayed effect, so someone who didn’t do proper research will think it’s not working and take too much, then it kicks in and they cook their internal organs from the inside out lol. The cancer risks are speculative and cataract risks were only in women, but even then there is surgery for cataracts and it would be better than being obese.

I just think it’s funny how everyone on forums is like OK test tren t3 clen insulin anadrol halo etc etc looks good man awesome cycle should be sick gains! And then someone mentions DNP and it’s OMG THAT’S SO CRAZY AND DANGEROUS. My 2 cents at least. It’s up to everyone to do their own research and make their own decisions about their body.


#16

Yes it is everyone’s responsibility to do the research but I also wouldn’t ever recommend insulin to someone because of the possibility of it killing them(if they’re stupid). If something stupid can be done, someone will do it.

Seen plenty of threads where people “accidentally” injected like 5-10 times the intended amount of something. I don’t see any danger in any of these drugs if they’re used responsibly…but people in general are stupid.


#17

[quote]joyfull wrote:
The risks of DNP are overstated. It has an unwarranted reputation on forums for being extremely dangerous, but you would really have to be a total fucking idiot to die from hyperthermia. Of course, there are many potential such idiots that see these forums so maybe it is a bit irresponsible. Taken at sane doses, it’s safer than Clen. And far more effective.

It’s a bit like everyone freaking out about a plant (cannabis) because it’s illegal. But then they go and take exotic prescription medications like it’s no big deal because it’s legal. DNP was made illegal around the same time as cannabis btw. I would do DNP way before clen, liposuction, stomach stapling/bands, and it’s even a healthier option than staying obese if someone lacked the willpower and discipline to diet/exercise.

The danger is that it has a delayed effect, so someone who didn’t do proper research will think it’s not working and take too much, then it kicks in and they cook their internal organs from the inside out lol. The cancer risks are speculative and cataract risks were only in women, but even then there is surgery for cataracts and it would be better than being obese.

I just think it’s funny how everyone on forums is like OK test tren t3 clen insulin anadrol halo etc etc looks good man awesome cycle should be sick gains! And then someone mentions DNP and it’s OMG THAT’S SO CRAZY AND DANGEROUS. My 2 cents at least. It’s up to everyone to do their own research and make their own decisions about their body.[/quote]

Do you have evidence that DNP is safer than clen? Do you really believe that getting cataracts and a subsequent surgery is better than being obese? A condition that fixed with hard work and willpower. No surgery necessary. (Although available).

By the way, so we are clear. I never said OMG THAT"S SO CRAZY… I said I could never in good conscience recommend DNP. I’m not even saying I wouldn’t try it. I don’t think I ever will or see any need to. But I would do that after a shitload of research and with a lot of consideration and caution. I did say it is scary shit and I stand by that after much reading.

When people here recommend something i.e. clen, t3, etc. It’s because they are tried and true. These drugs have been used for a long time. Side affects are known and how to manage them is known. DNP doesn’t have this track record.

This one article alone is enough for me to NOT recommend this stuff.


#18

[quote]joyfull wrote:
The risks of DNP are overstated. It has an unwarranted reputation on forums for being extremely dangerous, but you would really have to be a total fucking idiot to die from hyperthermia. Of course, there are many potential such idiots that see these forums so maybe it is a bit irresponsible. Taken at sane doses, it’s safer than Clen. And far more effective.

It’s a bit like everyone freaking out about a plant (cannabis) because it’s illegal. But then they go and take exotic prescription medications like it’s no big deal because it’s legal. DNP was made illegal around the same time as cannabis btw. I would do DNP way before clen, liposuction, stomach stapling/bands, and it’s even a healthier option than staying obese if someone lacked the willpower and discipline to diet/exercise.

The danger is that it has a delayed effect, so someone who didn’t do proper research will think it’s not working and take too much, then it kicks in and they cook their internal organs from the inside out lol. The cancer risks are speculative and cataract risks were only in women, but even then there is surgery for cataracts and it would be better than being obese.

I just think it’s funny how everyone on forums is like OK test tren t3 clen insulin anadrol halo etc etc looks good man awesome cycle should be sick gains! And then someone mentions DNP and it’s OMG THAT’S SO CRAZY AND DANGEROUS. My 2 cents at least. It’s up to everyone to do their own research and make their own decisions about their body.[/quote]

uhm, with the exception of insulin, DNP is prolly one of the most dangerous BB drugs commonly used. for somebody who’s livelihood depends on a low level of bodyfat, i could see it being a calculated risk. but not for a regular dude…

it also makes it really hard for a lot of guys to simply train (or train with any frequency or intensity), which makes it in my opinion, pretty much pointless.


#19

@thegerman i’m not going to hold back information from the reasonable people in order to maybe save some stupid people from themselves. seems like everyone caters to the lowest common denominator (liability reasons?) but i have zero interest in it. i understand if you do though

@eatmorefood clen causes cardiac remodeling and is hard on your cardiovascular system. diseases related to the heart are one of the top killers. there are no similar risks associated with dnp. being morbidly obese is obviously worse than taking dnp and being lean. even if you got cataracts and had surgery (which is has a high success rate, not a big deal) the negative health consequences of obesity are too many for me to list here… dnp hasn’t been proven to have any long term negative effects.

i never said you reacted that way, just that it’s a frequent response. your comment was in the same vein tho.

dnp has been around longer than clen actually. cataracts and excessive fat loss were the reasons it was made illegal.

the article explains the harsh side effects. it doesn’t provide any evidence about it being unhealthy when used intelligently. whether the sides are worth the effects is different question from how healthy it is. also it says don’t worry about dnp just buy our supplement HOT-ROX… pretty much no one gets sides that bad on 200mg ED (more like 600+) but perhaps the author was an outlier.

@cycobushmaster it is a harsh drug but so are the others that everyone is totally cool with. my point is basically the gap isn’t nearly as wide as people make it out to be and it’s better than some accepted drugs (clen, insulin).

again the uncomfortable side effects are a different issue from how healthy or dangerous it is. even if training is impaired you could lose a 12 week cutting cycle’s worth of fat in 2 weeks. it has a 9:1 ratio of fat:muscle loss (compare that with t3 and how catabolic to muscle tissue it is) and anecdotally the fact that you can spend those 10 weeks bulking instead of cutting makes a big difference (read a few dozen logs of people who tried it). plus dnp increases mitochondrial density which has a number of positive effects on training, metabolism and nutrient partitioning…


#20

[quote]joyfull wrote:
@thegerman i’m not going to hold back information from the reasonable people in order to maybe save some stupid people from themselves. seems like everyone caters to the lowest common denominator (liability reasons?) but i have zero interest in it. i understand if you do though

@eatmorefood clen causes cardiac remodeling and is hard on your cardiovascular system. diseases related to the heart are one of the top killers. there are no similar risks associated with dnp. being morbidly obese is obviously worse than taking dnp and being lean. even if you got cataracts and had surgery (which is has a high success rate, not a big deal) the negative health consequences of obesity are too many for me to list here… dnp hasn’t been proven to have any long term negative effects.

i never said you reacted that way, just that it’s a frequent response. your comment was in the same vein tho.

dnp has been around longer than clen actually. cataracts and excessive fat loss were the reasons it was made illegal.

the article explains the harsh side effects. it doesn’t provide any evidence about it being unhealthy when used intelligently. whether the sides are worth the effects is different question from how healthy it is. also it says don’t worry about dnp just buy our supplement HOT-ROX… pretty much no one gets sides that bad on 200mg ED (more like 600+) but perhaps the author was an outlier.

@cycobushmaster it is a harsh drug but so are the others that everyone is totally cool with. my point is basically the gap isn’t nearly as wide as people make it out to be and it’s better than some accepted drugs (clen, insulin).

again the uncomfortable side effects are a different issue from how healthy or dangerous it is. even if training is impaired you could lose a 12 week cutting cycle’s worth of fat in 2 weeks. it has a 9:1 ratio of fat:muscle loss (compare that with t3 and how catabolic to muscle tissue it is) and anecdotally the fact that you can spend those 10 weeks bulking instead of cutting makes a big difference (read a few dozen logs of people who tried it). plus dnp increases mitochondrial density which has a number of positive effects on training, metabolism and nutrient partitioning…

[/quote]

yeah, i’m not gonna waste the time… there’s an “ignore” function here for a reason.