T Nation

*sigh* What Does it Matter?


If one nation falls and another rises, who cares?

What does is matter that America is changing? This is the way it has always been with every nation throughout eternity and eventually this one will probably be bought out or fall to another. But what does that really mean for the citizens nowdays? A glance at Europe's attempts to somewhat unite and attempts all over the globe to bring together differences should make for the conclusion that if one modern country fell to another, the only thing that would probably change is currency, zip code, and method of deciding who should be the future governing structure.

But the everyday life, family traditions, entertainment, what you do for work, would that really change at all or in an unpleasant way? Or would it just be different and just as pleasant?

How should we respond to the knowledge that our system is becoming more and more corrupt? By arguing about it or by trying to ease whatever discomfort this brings others around us while armed with the knowledge that we are probably not going to change the corruption? Even if we did, it would likely become better and worst many times over again throughout the course of history. Such is the nature of human civilizations.


Yes - let's just sit around and wait for those 50 Million Dollar bills! It will be amazing.


What makes you say that it wouldn't matter? Do you even realize what you said?

..."and method of deciding who should be the future governing structure."

Being governed by other people who don't see you and themselves as a part of each other is basically slavery. Now I didn't even say or imply that would happen to America... you did. And you seem to be trying to make it sound ok. It's not ok. There's your answer.

So you just give up on humanity?

Why even bother to lift weights? If you don't keep up with it, you will likely become better and worst many times over again throughout the course of your weightlifting career. Matter of fact, now that I think about it... why bother doing anything? right?


Isn't that what you're doing right now? Typing on your keyboard wishing for more? What action are you taking?


What methods do you personally have to influence these matters? You seem upset that I seem not to care. What's the point of caring if you aren't going to change anything?

BTW, the weight-lifting analogy is completely irrelevant. I can easily change my body by my own effort. I don't feel that applies to my ability to change the government.


It matters for the prosperity of our future citizens. And, as I have an absolute moral obligation to leave things better than I found it (or at least, undiminished), I must take that into consideration. My personal and present satisfaction is not the end all-be all. I stay informed, support the causes and people that I can, etc.


I agree on the local level, but on the national level, what can you really do?


Borders do not matter. Nations do not matter. Politicians do not matter. Elections do not matter. Indeed, government does not even matter to the prosperity of a civilization. All that are required of any civilization are peace, trade, and freedom -- we could not even call it civilization where these ideas are not present.


That's cool, but we're talking about the actual physical world. Can we not bring some theoretical utopian anarchist world into it? In the real world, governments have been needed and expected to some degree. We're not ever going anarchist, barring some near extinction event. So, yeah.


No, governments have been forced upon us while being told we need them by people who have lust for power.

That does not make them necessary.


I have to disagree with you ironcross. Here are my reasons for disagreing with you:

point 1: From your post I get the feeling that you believe that human history just happens. Well I would
argue that history is driven by human action, and that stuff happens becuase we act. Meaning if you want shit
done or want some shit to happen you have to act to atleast try to make it happen.

point 2: History is full of evidence supporting the notion that people are able to change their conditions
on both a individual and a collective level. This flye in the face of your "Why even bother" philosophy.
A good saying form the labour movement is: "you have to take your right", meaning that you( as a person or as a class ) cant whait for shit to go your way, You have to act if you want shit to happend.

point 3: If people in the olden days believed like you do, then we would probably be at another place than
we are now society wise. I will give you some examples:

example 1: If the burgeoise-movement in the 1700s and 1800s did not revolt( think france 1789 or america 1776 ), there is a chance that the western world would not have societys based on democracy and the rule of law today.

example 2: If the workingclass had not formed unions and partys and pressed the ruling class to improve
their work conditions in the 1800s and 1900s. There is a chance that your working day would have been
mighty different that it is today, your paycheck to perhaps.

example 3: If the irish, indians etc had not rebelled against their colonial overlords, then there is a big
chance that those countrys would still be under great britain today.

example 4: If the fearer sex had not organized and pushed for equal rights( think suffragets and feminists ), then there is a chance that the fearer sex of today would not have as much indipendence as they have today.

And the list goes on and on.

The point is that it is wery important that people organize and fight the power so to speak if they want
to improve the society, you cant expect those who gain from the staus quo to bring about progress.


I'm not upset that you "seem not to care".

You can believe whatever you want. But you asked "What does it matter"? I answered your question.

But to be completely honest I actually am a little bit upset because I think you're lying. Of course I could be wrong - I don't really know whats going on in your head but I really think you're telling the worst kind of lie. You're lying to yourself. The purpose of this thread you have created isn't to help us see the light that "all hope is lost" so that we can "enjoy while we can" or some shit like that. This thread is about you.
You're scared. You realize that action needs to be taken. But you're not willing to take any action personally because you are scared. And so this thread here is your excuse to not do NOTHIN.

You know why I say that?
Because you actually typed out

"What's the point of caring if you aren't going to change anything? "

Or it could be re-written (from some of the other things you've said)

"What's the point of caring if you cant change it? "

But there are plenty of things that you would care about regardless of whether or not you could change it. Examples like if you were stranded in the desert or locked in prison. You framed the question as a logical reason on why you shouldn't care. But what you have asked is not really logical - and I don't for one second believe that it was meant to be. It was only designed to appear logical. I think to fool yourself, but I can't know for sure. How can someone do something positive if they haven't even admitted that they care? They wouldn't. And that's why I call it an excuse. Like Sloth said, you have a moral obligation... and I think you already knew that

Regardless of whether or not I am correct on the above, there is a question below that overrides it all. I would like you to answer it.


Somehow you managed to read my entire first post and miss the parts where I said what one should help the suffering around them. On a local level. How is that giving up on humanity?

You still haven't answered my question: What are you doing?


Wow, ironcross, you have the conservatives AND florius disagreeing with you. And with lifty now the only one on the board arguing basically in support of your point, you should probably take this as a sign it's time to take a step back and reevaluate, lol.


The day when everyone realises this will be so beautiful.


This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


How is that giving up on humanity? It isn't. But you didn't really say that in your OP.

Here's what you said in your OP

"How should we respond to the knowledge that our system is becoming more and more corrupt? By arguing about it or by trying to ease whatever discomfort this brings others around us while armed with the knowledge that we are probably not going to change the corruption? Even if we did, it would likely become better and worst many times over again throughout the course of history. Such is the nature of human civilizations. "

Spreading delusional thinking isn't even trying to help nothing. And that definitely sounded like giving up to me. And then when you finished it with "such is the nature of human civilizations"... my question was decent.

Alright anyway that's enough arguing from me. However much I have or haven't helped I don't think I can do much more here in this thread.

You asked me what I am doing. Not very much. There are three levels to fixing big problems like this. First is information - recognizing the problem(s) and understanding it, pondering solutions. Second is organizing, and third is action.

I see myself as somewhere between point 1 and 2. I don't actually know anyone personally that I would say is at point 2 or higher. I saw you as being at point 0 where you were basically in denial and acting like it didn't matter. Me attempting to remedy that wasn't just an attack on you - it wasn't that at all actually - the more I do this and the better I get at it, the closer I get to becoming a leader/organizer.

But in reality it doesn't even really matter if I or you become a leader. Once you get enough people to just point 1 to where they really recognize whats happening, and they decide to stand against the problem (not just recognizing it and then ignoring), then leaders naturally emerge and it's all downhill from there. Once you hit the tipping point then the rest happens automatically, but you're not guaranteed to ever hit the tipping point. And we won't hit it if even when we get to the point where everyone recognizes that we have major problems, because it's blatantly obvious, then people still decide to stick there head in the ground. So that's why I had to at least try to squash the bullshit in your OP.

I get the feeling you really only asked me this so that you could criticize me and show that I'm not doing enough. And if you could do that, then you could just decide that im 'wrong' and then you could ignore all that I said to you earlier. Thats the feeling I get, but I would like you to answer if I am correct or not - please?

I'm gonna answer your question again in a shorter way. I am not doing anything special. I have aligned myself in a way that I will help move things in the right direction just simply by being myself. Truly, I literally am the solution. I know that sounds arrogant as fuck, but I really just realized it when I was writing about the tipping point. By logic, if you personally are past the tipping point and you are pulling people with you, then that is a solution.

Hey, thanks for the discussion. I had to think alot for some of my responses and in doing so I actually learned some stuff. I think alot to myself, but it's different when I have to explain things to someone who I think will try to argue with me.