T Nation

Show Me the Fatwa!

There must be something in the Koran that justifies them doing this. Does this condemn the whole religion?

"Taliban Tells Pakistani Christians: Convert or Die
Thursday, May 17, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan ? Christians in a Pakistani town beset by pro-Taliban militants sought government protection Wednesday, the eve of a deadline for them to convert to Islam or face violence.

About 500 Pakistani Christians in Charsadda, a town in the North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, received letters earlier this month telling them to close their churches and convert by Thursday or be the target of “bomb explosions.”

Several Christians, a tiny minority in the predominantly Muslim country, have fled town and others are living in fear, community leaders said.

Some complained that police were not taking the threat seriously."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273075,00.html

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
There must be something in the Koran that justifies them doing this. Does this condemn the whole religion?

"Taliban Tells Pakistani Christians: Convert or Die
Thursday, May 17, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan ? Christians in a Pakistani town beset by pro-Taliban militants sought government protection Wednesday, the eve of a deadline for them to convert to Islam or face violence.

About 500 Pakistani Christians in Charsadda, a town in the North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, received letters earlier this month telling them to close their churches and convert by Thursday or be the target of “bomb explosions.”

Several Christians, a tiny minority in the predominantly Muslim country, have fled town and others are living in fear, community leaders said.

Some complained that police were not taking the threat seriously."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273075,00.html

[/quote]

Ah yes, our old foes the taliban…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
There must be something in the Koran that justifies them doing this. Does this condemn the whole religion?

"Taliban Tells Pakistani Christians: Convert or Die
Thursday, May 17, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan ? Christians in a Pakistani town beset by pro-Taliban militants sought government protection Wednesday, the eve of a deadline for them to convert to Islam or face violence.

About 500 Pakistani Christians in Charsadda, a town in the North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, received letters earlier this month telling them to close their churches and convert by Thursday or be the target of “bomb explosions.”

Several Christians, a tiny minority in the predominantly Muslim country, have fled town and others are living in fear, community leaders said.

Some complained that police were not taking the threat seriously."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273075,00.html

[/quote]

Why do you think it’s the world’s fastest growing religion? Convert of die, mother-fucker kind of has a ring to it. As for me, I would hope I’d have the courage to choose death.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Why do you think it’s the world’s fastest growing religion? […][/quote]

That was funny…in a morbid kind of way.

As for HH’s relentless “Jihad” against Islam, I’d ask you to read this bit.

And just how many times did I denounce Pakistan as being the country where Islamist terrorists get a break? The Saudis give the money and the Pakistanis harbour them. Yet, you go around invading Iraq and threatening Iran, both of which are the sworn enemies of Al-Qaeda.

What’s interesting here is that there must be somewhere in this religion a rule or dictum that permits this sort of thing. If so, such a rule would condemn the religion. If one of the rules in your mission statement is to kill others unless they convert, its evil in its premises.

I realize that religious statements are open to interpretation but if a fatwa or hadith allows this sort of interpretation, then it condemns itself.

If someone is going to set up a religion or political system, they have to ‘leakproof’ the whole damn thing, or some nut will take it and run with it. Look how the Soviets ran with Marx and Engels’ ideas.

“Je ne suis pa Marxiste!”
— Marx, after attending a meeting
of the Communist Internationale

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
What’s interesting here is that there must be somewhere in this religion a rule or dictum that permits this sort of thing. If so, such a rule would condemn the religion. If one of the rules in your mission statement is to kill others unless they convert, its evil in its premises.[/quote]

It’s not really interesting, and your statement that it is evil in its premises is dicey logic. People have been killing each other for dumber reasons since the dawn of man.

Look at the Crusades, The Bible doesn’t include any verses explicitly saying to kill non-believers, it barely even has verses that can be interpreted as such, but despite that, it was used as a justification.

The point is. The religion is not the issue. It never was. Whether a Religion can be interpreted to kill people or to save people is irrelevant based on what people will ACTUALLY do supposedly in the name of their religion.

Even looking at some comments on this board, there are Christians on this very board that support war. Yet they have no issue with that. Does that make Christianity evil? because its followers can so support something that is completely contradictory to the entire premise of their religion? even without misinterpreting verses, they are still fully capable of doing it on their own.

Again, Religion is not the issue, hardly anyone actually listens to their religions anyway. Most people use it as a crutch for things in their lives that they are too weak to handle.

As a scapegoat for when they fuck-up, and as way to bypass taking personal responsibility for their actions. People endorse religion when it is convenient for them to do so. Very few people actually live by the tenants of their religion, this includes Muslims, Jews, Christians.

Getting pissed because someone mentions their religion after they perform a heinous act is a waste of time that only serves to distract the actual causes for why they did what they did.

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
The Bible doesn’t include any verses explicitly saying to kill non-believers, it barely even has verses that can be interpreted as such, but despite that, it was used as a justification.[/quote]

How about these:

Exodus, 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Deuteronomy, 17:2-5 [i]If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.[/i]

You know, I’m sure that witch burnings, gay beatings, teenager stoning, atheist slaughter, abortion clinic bombing and crusades are all covered in the bible as A okay.

Does this condemn the whole religion?

[quote]pookie wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
The Bible doesn’t include any verses explicitly saying to kill non-believers, it barely even has verses that can be interpreted as such, but despite that, it was used as a justification.

How about these:

Exodus, 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Deuteronomy, 17:2-5 [i]If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.[/i]
[/quote]

Pookie, you forget that we’re supposed to gloss over the old testament, the new testament is where the message is at.

Or at least that’s what I keep getting told.

[quote]Ren wrote:
Pookie, you forget that we’re supposed to gloss over the old testament, the new testament is where the message is at.

Or at least that’s what I keep getting told.[/quote]

Of course.

But the statement I quoted claimed “The Bible doesn’t include any verses…” and not “The New Testament…”

Second, religious nuts don’t really care for that distinction. Would Fred Phelps and his merry gang of hatemongers say “Oops.” and go home if you pointed that out to them?

[quote]pookie wrote:
Ren wrote:
Pookie, you forget that we’re supposed to gloss over the old testament, the new testament is where the message is at.

Or at least that’s what I keep getting told.

Of course.

But the statement I quoted claimed “The Bible doesn’t include any verses…” and not “The New Testament…”

Second, religious nuts don’t really care for that distinction. Would Fred Phelps and his merry gang of hatemongers say “Oops.” and go home if you pointed that out to them?

[/quote]

Oh of course not, but then you get the people that try to excuse those people by saying they are misreading the message in the Bible, blah blah blah.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
The Bible doesn’t include any verses explicitly saying to kill non-believers, it barely even has verses that can be interpreted as such, but despite that, it was used as a justification.

How about these:

Exodus, 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Deuteronomy, 17:2-5 [i]If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.[/i]
[/quote]

Don’t these verses only apply to The Jewish people traveling with Moses during the Exodus/the nation of Israel? instead of an outright call for converts at all costs.

or in American terms Love it or Leave it.

[quote]Ren wrote:
pookie wrote:
Ren wrote:
Pookie, you forget that we’re supposed to gloss over the old testament, the new testament is where the message is at.

Or at least that’s what I keep getting told.

Of course.

But the statement I quoted claimed “The Bible doesn’t include any verses…” and not “The New Testament…”

Second, religious nuts don’t really care for that distinction. Would Fred Phelps and his merry gang of hatemongers say “Oops.” and go home if you pointed that out to them?

Oh of course not, but then you get the people that try to excuse those people by saying they are misreading the message in the Bible, blah blah blah.
[/quote]

Everything has a context… Although I do agree you guy’s get some pretty piss poor explinations.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
You know, I’m sure that witch burnings, gay beatings, teenager stoning, atheist slaughter, abortion clinic bombing and crusades are all covered in the bible as A okay.

Does this condemn the whole religion?[/quote]

sarcasm
I think it depends on what side of the beating your on…

That is why I am thankful us Christians are giver’s instead of receiver’s.
end Sarcasm

[quote]haney1 wrote:
Don’t these verses only apply to The Jewish people traveling with Moses during the Exodus/the nation of Israel? instead of an outright call for converts at all costs. [/quote]

Could be. The point was to show that for a nut looking for justification, the text is there. After that, it’s just your interpretation vs. his.

My first quote can be used (wrongly) to justify killing unbelievers. The end of the second one to justify the Crusades.

Fundamentalist nuts aren’t known for being great theologians nor masters of nuance and context.

Even among more moderate interpretations, look at the near endless sects of Christianity: Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants (with sub splits among Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, Anabaptists, etc) Mormons and on and on. All from the same source material.

Now, why would your reasonable reading of the Bible be any more “right” than Fred Phelp’s reading of same?

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
The point is. The religion is not the issue. It never was[/quote]

Wrong… :slight_smile:

[quote]pookie wrote:

Could be. The point was to show that for a nut looking for justification, the text is there. After that, it’s just your interpretation vs. his.[/quote]

Even drawing the distinctions you have doesn’t clear the waters any really. Nuts looking for justification could just as easily write their own manifestos.

I agree with the dispelling of “religious causality”, but the association is too strong to ignore. Muslims themselves even acknowledge sects that need to be invalidated or stamped out. You can point to Christian examples of the same, but the numbers, organization, and severity are still significantly disparate.

At least, since the Age of Enlightenment.

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Why do you think it’s the world’s fastest growing religion? […]

That was funny…in a morbid kind of way.

As for HH’s relentless “Jihad” against Islam, I’d ask you to read this bit.

And just how many times did I denounce Pakistan as being the country where Islamist terrorists get a break? The Saudis give the money and the Pakistanis harbour them. Yet, you go around invading Iraq and threatening Iran, both of which are the sworn enemies of Al-Qaeda.[/quote]

Absolutely. Pakistan has a history of harboring terrorists and using them in Kashmir. By the way I’m Indian so I might be a little biased here…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

"Taliban Tells Pakistani Christians: Convert or Die
Thursday, May 17, 2007

[/quote]

Well, I believe, it’s convert, subjugate, or die. Three options.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
Even drawing the distinctions you have doesn’t clear the waters any really. Nuts looking for justification could just as easily write their own manifestos.[/quote]

And many have. Quote-mining the Bible has the added weight of “The Word of God” for many. It probably makes recruitment easier. Dying for the glory of God is one thing; giving your life for Joe Wacko is another entirely.

Stamping out sects is extremely rare. The general tendency is for more rifts and splits as the religion ages. Mergers of disagreeing sects is almost unheard of.

Just look at the Catholic and Orthodox, who came this close to reforming a single Church. A single holdout, Mark of Ephesus refused to sign the decree. He’s now venerated as a saint by the Orthodox.

If you read about the main reason for the schism in the first place, the “filioque” clause, it’s pure mental masturbation about whether the Holy Spirit emanates from the Father and the Son or from the Father through the Son or some such ridiculous triviality.

If churches can split over such piffles, we’ll never see the end of sects, cults and other side shows.