Shoulders Never Sore, Help

I’ve been trying to find a way to really hammer my delts, but whatever I do I can’t get any DOMS the next day. I know DOMS isn’t necessary for growth, but since it’s the only bodypart I don’t get it for it does make me think I might need to put more thought into why.

Currently I’m doing:

Chest/Tri/Calves
Back/Bi/Abs
Legs/Calves
Shoulders
Arms/Abs/Calves
Off
Off

And my Shoulder day consists of:

machine laterals, 4x12 ramping to top weight, then drop set
Partial DB laterals, 4x25 straight sets
DB rear flys, 4x15 ramping, drop set
Seated face pulls, 4x15 straight sets
DeFrancos scarecrows, 3x15 straight sets
DB Shoulder Press, 3x10 ramping, then another slightly lighter set then top set
BB Shrugs, 4x15 ramping, 2 drop sets
Cable External Rotate, 3x12 straight sets

My upper traps will usually be sore the next day, but not my delts. It’s hard for me to “feel” my side delts during movements, any tips? During my workout, after the partial laterals I usually have a decent pump even though I struggle to feel my side delt. Also after my rear delt flys my rear delt feels pretty worked and full of blood. The next day though, nothing.

Any changes I should make to my shoulder routine? Any tips to help feel my side delt more? I had a major wrist surgery that makes certain things (like the old “raise your pinky” cue for lateral raises) impossible, but usually I can find a workaround. I just need ideas.

If there was ever a muscle group that, for me, only gets sore on occasion, it’s delts. MMC takes a while to get, as well.

If I remember right, the last time I felt soreness was the day after I finished with behind the back cable laterals. You can get a lot of stretch from these which might have contributed to it.

Are your shoulders getting stronger, bigger? I wouldn’t worry about the soreness too much for shoulders. MMC much more important.

Due to your wrist, can you wear straps for laterals to allow your pinky to come up? Also, don’t really think about your finger, think about letting the thumb side of the DB fall down as you go up. You can also hold the DB off-center to allow this to happen more naturally.

A while back I did Jim’s 100 rep challange, my shoulders were wrecked for days. john Meadows talks about insane high rep training for shoulders as well. Both of these guys know their shit at two end of the spectrum, so it might be somthing to look into.

[quote]cueball wrote:
If there was ever a muscle group that, for me, only gets sore on occasion, it’s delts. MMC takes a while to get, as well.

If I remember right, the last time I felt soreness was the day after I finished with behind the back cable laterals. You can get a lot of stretch from these which might have contributed to it.

Are your shoulders getting stronger, bigger? I wouldn’t worry about the soreness too much for shoulders. MMC much more important.

Due to your wrist, can you wear straps for laterals to allow your pinky to come up? Also, don’t really think about your finger, think about letting the thumb side of the DB fall down as you go up. You can also hold the DB off-center to allow this to happen more naturally.[/quote]

It’s always hard for me to tell when shoulders get bigger honestly, even on other people. It’s not a muscle group that seems to “pop” that well when flexed, unless you’re really lean. Something like biceps is easier to visually see and measure.

Getting stronger? yeah, but I’m not sure how much of the work my delts are doing since I struggle to feel my side delts.

Straps I don’t think would allow my pinky to come up. The position my wrist gets put in with the weight pulling straight down would still put to much pressure on my reconstructed part. Even normal laterals without twisting my pinky up can cause issues, which is why I use the machine.

I think the biggest thing I need to figure out is how to get that MMC for my delts so I can focus on contracting them. I don’t have a good idea on how to do that though.

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
A while back I did Jim’s 100 rep challange, my shoulders were wrecked for days. john Meadows talks about insane high rep training for shoulders as well. Both of these guys know their shit at two end of the spectrum, so it might be somthing to look into.[/quote]

I’ve looked into Meadows a lot, much of the stuff he’s been saying is something I came to conclusion about during my recovery from my surgeries, since I had plenty of time to think about logical ways to workout. He’s part of the reason im doing 15 reps for a lot of these and why I have a 25 rep exercise.

He’s the reason I have those 4x25 partial laterals in, though I’m falling out of love with them as they seem to put stress on my elbow joint somehow. I’ll probably be switching them out sometime soon, hopefully for something that allows me to really feel the muscle and doesn’t put excessive stress on my joints.

[quote]fisch wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
If there was ever a muscle group that, for me, only gets sore on occasion, it’s delts. MMC takes a while to get, as well.

If I remember right, the last time I felt soreness was the day after I finished with behind the back cable laterals. You can get a lot of stretch from these which might have contributed to it.

Are your shoulders getting stronger, bigger? I wouldn’t worry about the soreness too much for shoulders. MMC much more important.

Due to your wrist, can you wear straps for laterals to allow your pinky to come up? Also, don’t really think about your finger, think about letting the thumb side of the DB fall down as you go up. You can also hold the DB off-center to allow this to happen more naturally.[/quote]

It’s always hard for me to tell when shoulders get bigger honestly, even on other people. It’s not a muscle group that seems to “pop” that well when flexed, unless you’re really lean. Something like biceps is easier to visually see and measure.

Getting stronger? yeah, but I’m not sure how much of the work my delts are doing since I struggle to feel my side delts.

Straps I don’t think would allow my pinky to come up. The position my wrist gets put in with the weight pulling straight down would still put to much pressure on my reconstructed part. Even normal laterals without twisting my pinky up can cause issues, which is why I use the machine.

I think the biggest thing I need to figure out is how to get that MMC for my delts so I can focus on contracting them. I don’t have a good idea on how to do that though.[/quote]

Actually, for lateral raises I could raise my pinky up but I would have to interally rotate my shoulders quite a bit so that the dumbbell is perpendicular to the floor instead of the standard parallel to the floor. Basically, so that the weight isn’t pulling my wrist down and stretching the tendons on the back of the wrist.

I don’t know if that would be a dangerous thing for shoulder health or not though. I read on here recently that more internal rotation would take the front delt out of the equation and put more stress on the side and rear, but I don’t know if from a biomechanical standpoint it’s 1.) Safe and 2.) would actually put stress on the side delt without shifting it to the rear

Personally I prefer less volume for delts. I do not like to do shrugs with shoulders. IMO that is for back day but sometimes I incorporate it in the same day.

I have not had a legit designated shoulder only day in a while now but my delts are blossoming like a beautiful rose bush.

I recently shared on here with another member Rich Pianas approach to hitting shoulders. He will do lateral raises for high rep sets. I am talking 40-50 reps.

I started doing this. 40 reps then 30, another 30 , 20 then 12 then maybe another 30 rep set to finish off. The first two really get the delts engorged with blood then the 12 rep set is with a heavier weight. Then that last thirty rep is to try to pump as much blood. I flex incredibly hard. I envision my skin literally tearing from the muscle growing.

Also highpulls man. CT suggests them for the “power look” But my yolk has never been more yolked since I started that.

Keep it simple man.

Do DB press 3 sets
Lateral raises like I suggested. 3-4 sets
SOmething for your rear delts 3 sets
High pulls 3 sets
and db or bb shrugs if you want 3 sets

That is a much better delt day then yours in my opinion

Higher volume brought my delts up considerably. Like 30+ reps for warm up followed by 8-12 compound moves, followed by more volume.
I even corrected my lateral raises to bring my arms slightly forward with the slightest bend in my elbow.
I use to bring them straight up from my sides and it little for my side delts, and increased my traps exponentially.

I liek the one Zraw posted before
not verbatim btw

4x25-30 partial side raises
4x20 rear Pec deck, hold for 1 sec
3x12-15 front DB raises
3x10 6 ways

Also I am REALLY starting to like supersetting front DB raises with moderate/light(high rep) Incline BB bench, and I bring the barbell down to my neck or right at the calviacle. Freaken get a nice pump in front delts.

I do bastardized JM training and increase the volume and my shoulder still don’t get sore. And they are one of my better body parts

Some good advice so far, thanks guys.

@A-rod: Pianas approach to lateral raises is interesting, something I thought about trying after reading from Meadow’s and a few others about really high reps for shoulders. Seems to work well for a lot of people. I don’t think high pulls are an option with my wrist, some of the nerve entrapment from my surgery doesn’t like the movement and can cause some interesting pain.

@Savaged: I’m strongly considering using a really high rep exercise (like those 30+) to get blood pumped into the muscle and really feel it. Mentally, it’s a small challenge to do an exercise like that knowing I’m not trying to push myself to get stronger but instead the goal is just to drive blood into the muscle. Also, are you saying you corrected your form TO one where your elbows are slightly bent and you raise them slightly forward? I was always told that would cause more front delt to be used, and since I can’t really feel the delt heads well I’ve always had to trust others word.

@optheta: I actually made a post or 2 in zraws thread questioning him about shoulders. I started structuring my workout more like that after that conversation. I did try the rear pec dec, but it just feels so awkward I dropped it for seated face pulls.

I appreciate the input guys. Hopefully people will keep commenting, even if it’s just reaffirming something already mentioned.

From my point of veiw you might be over thinking things. First of all big powerful shoulders show up, lean or not. Secondly I feel big muscles are built with big exercises. In your routine I see alot of small exercises, not much time spent on big ones. I asume your a BBer (didn’t look at avatar) I would spend most of my time on BB, and DB presses, lots of sets (5-10) in the 6-12 range than burn them out with some assistnce work.

I personaly like doing front plate raises, supersetted with face pulls. I do these after my sets of pressing. Grab a 25lb plate, standing, go from your lap and raise the plate up over your head, aim for 30 reps, go straight over to face pull staition and get 20 good full slow reps, do this 5x. Finish with one all out death set of side latterals down the rack. 35s x 10, 25s x 10, than 15s till tears are running down your face. I would also finish my chest day with down the rack latterals, one all out set. The way your split is you could also finish your back day with some rear latterals. If you used this program, and ideas for 3mths with effort and consistancy, I promise growth.Jjohn Meadows routines work as well, just pick one and stick to it. 2cents

From my point of veiw you might be over thinking things. First of all big powerful shoulders show up, lean or not. Secondly I feel big muscles are built with big exercises. In your routine I see alot of small exercises, not much time spent on big ones. I asume your a BBer (didn’t look at avatar) I would spend most of my time on BB, and DB presses, lots of sets (5-10) in the 6-12 range than burn them out with some assistnce work. I personaly like doing front plate raises, supersetted with face pulls. I do these after my sets of pressing. Grab a 25lb plate, standing, go from your lap and raise the plate up over your head, aim for 30 reps, go straight over to face pull staition and get 20 good full slow reps, do this 5x. Finish with one all out death set of side latterals down the rack. 35s x 10, 25s x 10, than 15s till tears are running down your face.

I would also finish my chest day with down the rack latterals, one all out set. The way your split is you could also finish your back day with some rear latterals. If you used this program, and ideas for 3mths with effort and consistancy, I promise growth. John Meadows routines work as well, just pick one and stick to it. 2cents

[quote]fisch wrote:
Some good advice so far, thanks guys.

@A-rod: Pianas approach to lateral raises is interesting, something I thought about trying after reading from Meadow’s and a few others about really high reps for shoulders. Seems to work well for a lot of people. I don’t think high pulls are an option with my wrist, some of the nerve entrapment from my surgery doesn’t like the movement and can cause some interesting pain.

@Savaged: I’m strongly considering using a really high rep exercise (like those 30+) to get blood pumped into the muscle and really feel it. Mentally, it’s a small challenge to do an exercise like that knowing I’m not trying to push myself to get stronger but instead the goal is just to drive blood into the muscle. Also, are you saying you corrected your form TO one where your elbows are slightly bent and you raise them slightly forward? I was always told that would cause more front delt to be used, and since I can’t really feel the delt heads well I’ve always had to trust others word.

@optheta: I actually made a post or 2 in zraws thread questioning him about shoulders. I started structuring my workout more like that after that conversation. I did try the rear pec dec, but it just feels so awkward I dropped it for seated face pulls.

I appreciate the input guys. Hopefully people will keep commenting, even if it’s just reaffirming something already mentioned.[/quote]

Try adjusting the seat and see what works. Rear pec deck is really really good for hitting rear delts.

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
From my point of veiw you might be over thinking things. First of all big powerful shoulders show up, lean or not. Secondly I feel big muscles are built with big exercises. In your routine I see alot of small exercises, not much time spent on big ones. I asume your a BBer (didn’t look at avatar) I would spend most of my time on BB, and DB presses, lots of sets (5-10) in the 6-12 range than burn them out with some assistnce work.

I personaly like doing front plate raises, supersetted with face pulls. I do these after my sets of pressing. Grab a 25lb plate, standing, go from your lap and raise the plate up over your head, aim for 30 reps, go straight over to face pull staition and get 20 good full slow reps, do this 5x. Finish with one all out death set of side latterals down the rack. 35s x 10, 25s x 10, than 15s till tears are running down your face. I would also finish my chest day with down the rack latterals, one all out set. The way your split is you could also finish your back day with some rear latterals. If you used this program, and ideas for 3mths with effort and consistancy, I promise growth.Jjohn Meadows routines work as well, just pick one and stick to it. 2cents[/quote]

I have no real interest in starting with pressing anymore. I did that for the first 2 years of training before my injuries and surgeries, then while recovering I did some thinking and research. My goal now is to build an impressive physique first and foremost (and stay healthy while doing it), and after thinking about it and reading posts from guys like Stu and Meadows I believe side and rear work should be done first and much more emphasis should be placed on those heads if someones goal is rounded, well developed shoulders.

I’m not disputing big exercises and their effectiveness, but how many “big” exercises are there really that target the delts? Especially side delts? Front delts get worked fairly well from presses on chest day and the DB shoulder press I do at the end. Upright row is the only other “big” exercise for shoulders I know, but lots of people seem to believe it is potentially harmful to the shoulder capsule.

I thought about adding in some rear delt work on back day, and already do the Scarecrows on back day in part for this reason (also because it is a good overall shoulder health movement). But I do already have quite a lot on back day as is, so I’m not sure how practical it is to add more work. Though I could superset them with my bicep work to save time.

When I read that you couldn’t see your shoulders unless you were lean, I assumed you were a beginner, I wouldn’t have went to the trouble of my last post, oh well. I come at these problems as a strength trainer, to me impressive shoulders are big and powerful like CT’s or Wendler’s, and I’m sure these guys wouldn’t give much credit to laterals. If your a BBer, and have been at this for awhile I guess that’s a different journey. John seems to be the go to guy in this regard. For me when trying to bring up a lagging bodypart, I try to get blood into it throughout the week, with a couple sets here and there squeezed in. goodluck