T Nation

Shoulders After Chest?

Evening, i have started a 3 split that i perform 5 days a week (2 on, 1 of, 1 on, 1 of, repeat) and i wonder if my anterior delts will “grow less” if done after chest instead of a separate day?
Wich this split kinda dont allow if i want to recover enough.
Atm it looks like this ->

Bench - 3 x 4-6
Incline DB press - 3 x 6-8
Flyes - 2-3 x 9-11
Seated military press - 3 x 6-8
Cable lateral raise - 3 x 9-11
Frenchpress - 3 x 6-8
Pushdowns - 2-3 x 9-11

Do you guys think this will be to much for my anterior delts?
How would you have done it? Another example i have thought of is where i leave the work for the anterior delts to the bench/incline db press and just increase the volume a bit in the incline and later raises.

Bench - 3 x 4-6
Incline DB press - 4 x 6-8
Flyes - 2 x 9-11
Cable lateral raise - 4-5 x 9-11
Frenchpress - 3 x 6-8
Pushdowns - 2-3 x 9-11

Cheers!

If it makes you feel any better, I do heavy Flat Bench Press, followed by heavy Military Press…

3x a week, always shooting for new PR’s and breaking new PR’s almost every workout.

Yes, it is ok… Full Body / Chest+shoulder+tri / Push days have all been used since the DAWN of time with success.

It is ridiculous to think doing Shoulders following chest isn’t as good; tell that to Kevin Levrone.

However, if you really want to split it up so they’re fresh, that’s fine too!!

How about something like that Lee Haney does?

Chest/Arms, Legs , Shoulders/Back, Off, Repeat

etc.

[quote]Ethan7X wrote:
Yes, it is ok… Full Body / Chest+shoulder+tri / Push days have all been used since the DAWN of time with success.[/quote]

That is true, what do you think about the way i’ve put it together?

Shoulders after chest is fine, im pretty sure John Meadows does that and it works well for him and the guys he trains. You don’t have any rear delt work in there, unless your doing it on a different day fix that. Your set up is fine if you like it, if you notice any issues change it. I’d do a little more volume for lateral delts but that’s just me, I like hitting them harder.

[quote]fisch wrote:
Shoulders after chest is fine, im pretty sure John Meadows does that and it works well for him and the guys he trains. You don’t have any rear delt work in there, unless your doing it on a different day fix that. Your set up is fine if you like it, if you notice any issues change it. I’d do a little more volume for lateral delts but that’s just me, I like hitting them harder.[/quote]

Yea the rear delts are on the pull day and it looks like this

Pullups - 3 x 4-6
DB Row - 4 x 6-8
Pulldowns/Hammer strength row (wide grip) 3 x 9-11, alternating exercise each workout
Rear delt fly - 3 x 9-11 superset DB shrugs - 3 x 9-11
BB curl - 3 x 6-8
Hammercurl - 2 x 9-11

I don’t like your setup. Many people have used it, and it’s been fine…once again Kevrone Levrone being an example… they finish Chest first, then go to Delts, etc etc. But I have always felt since I started training that doing Flat Bench -> Military Press after is the way to go. You have to most energy to expend on the two big compounds. Then do whatever else after.

[quote]Ethan7X wrote:
I don’t like your setup. Many people have used it, and it’s been fine…once again Kevrone Levrone being an example… they finish Chest first, then go to Delts, etc etc. But I have always felt since I started training that doing Flat Bench -> Military Press after is the way to go. You have to most energy to expend on the two big compounds. Then do whatever else after.[/quote]

Ah, you meen something like this? ->

Bench
Military press
Incline press
Flyes
Laterals
Frenchpress + Pushdowns

I quess you would have done the same for the leg/low back workout then?
This is how it is atm ->

Squat
Legpress
RDL’s
Legcurl
Abs + hypers

How you would have done it? ->

Squat
RDL’s
Legpress
Legcurl
Abs + hypers

How does that feel? To start working a muscle and then jump back and forth between them that is.
Is that really good? Letting them rest that long?

Hey Rawsteel,

I don’t think you can really make a bad choice when it comes to training splits. Too much variance in peoples individual abilities and needs. Granted you want to find something that works for you but changing up your split could be a simple way to keep your program alive and keep the gains coming.

I remember reading an article almost two decades ago in Muscle and Fitness of all places. It was written by Lee Labrada, Berry Demey or one of the other all time greats. In it he talks about this specific split and says the way he managed it by doing chest first during one workout and then doing shoulders first the next.

The other thing you could do is have someone really good look at your physique and tell you where you lag more (i.e. shoulders or chest). If there is a big difference then I would prioritize that body part and always do it first or change my split up and put the weaker body part on it’s own day, focusing on the specific weakness (upper versus lower chest) and then doing a second chest workout along with another body part, later on that week.

Hey Rawsteel, yah but that’s because I feel in general, you need to focus really hard and have as much strength as possible for your compound lifts in these earlier stages of training. If you are Lee Haney, then it’s pretty much a different story; your foundations already solid and you’re looking for muscle stimulus, not just packing on the poundages to help build the base better if that makes sense.

Obviously you shouldn’t base your training off what I told you, some guy on the internet; but I’m regurgitating what I have learned after an IMMENSE amount of research and looking through what lots of champions did in their earlier days. It would be wiser I believe to do the big compounds first for each muscle group, then work on the ones that are more isolation , or kind of working both pretty evenly… so yes, I would do Squat->DL-> other stuff, or Flat Bench->Press->Flye, or Row->Pullups->Cable Row, etc etc etc. Yep yep : )

try it. like it, keep it. dont like it, dont keep doing. live and learn.

99% of splits are going to work fine, 99% of the time its the person doing them not the training program that is the source of stalling progress.

Just experiment bro, everyone is different who knows maybe youll find a workout no one has ever tried that works great…but ya gotta try it first broski.

I definitely think it’s best to kind of work outward from the chest and hit chest, shoulders, then triceps if you want to run a push day like that.

If you work shoulders with MP after bench press and then hit inclines, you are going to end up recruiting the delts more heavily on the incline press. I don’t think that makes sense, as the chest is a much bigger muscle group than the delts and can handle more work. I find that it works better to really fry the chest before moving to shoulders, since it will help avoid a lagging chest down the line. You can always do as much shoulder work as you need after the chest work is done, but if you frontload the MP in your workout prior to other chest moves, your delts might limit your incline pressing work and short your chest gains. I hope that kind of makes sense.

I like the options you laid out in your OP. You can build anterior delts with or without MP, so if you actually see gains in strength/size from MP and don’t find yourself getting injured, option 1 is fine. If MP does very little for you, option 2 is great. I personally only use it for light pump work because I have a nagging shoulder injury that heavy OHP inflames and my anterior delts don’t seem to be lagging.

JM usually have people do chest then shoulders in the same workout