T Nation

Shoulder Injury Identification

I wanted to see if someone could help me identify what is wrong with my shoulder.I am living in China now and the doctors here are not great at sports medicine as far is I can tell(there is also a significant communications barrier) so I thought I would ask on here for opinions before I go to see one.

Basically my shoulder started hurting in about september. I think it might have started when I was doing some flys. I stopped doing flys, upright rows and layed off the overhead pressing for a while and that seemed to help. Then I started ovehead pressing again and the pain seemed managable so I figure it would just work itself out. So, about three weeks ago I was noticing that the pain was starting to get worse. I decided I just need to take a complete break from upper body lifting and am at the start of my second week.

My symptoms are: The pain is in the upper front portion of the shoulder right about where the humerus meets the clavicle. Pain when overhead pressing but only at the very bottom range of motion. Once I get up an inch or two not really any pain. All front pushing below shoulder hight was ok until about three weeks ago. I still can go full strength with the pushing but it was starting to also make my shoulder sore a bit. Pull ups dont bother me. Dips, really bother me if I go below 90 degrees.

The biggest pain I feel is when my arm is extended at a diagonal up and back or if I cross very tightly in front of my body (like I am trying to hug my other shoulder). When not doing anything there is sort of like a very dull ache but not really pain. If I ice it it feels really good and the pain is nearly gone. If I dont extend my arm out, I have full range of motion without any pain even going back at an angle like I desgribed above.

Does this sound like something that rest will heal or is it something like the SLAP tear I saw in other posts that requires surgury? If it does sound like something that needs to be done surgically, is it urgent? I only usually get back to the US about once a year and I certainly would rather have it dont there than here.

Thanks for the help!

I had a very similar issue last Summer - pain in the shoulder at the beginning of a pressing movement, really felt it when I would bring my arm straight across the body as you described. I think mine started when I tried to add weight too quickly in pull ups and chins.

Lat became very tight over time, which pulled on just about every muscle in and around my shoulder, most notably pec minor. Things that helped me (no surgery): mobility exercises (t-spine), foam rolling, wall slides, TWY for traps, rear delt exercises such as face pulls, pull aparts. There are articles on the site about these.

But I found the most improvement when I saw a chiropractor who was well versed in ART. She worked wonders within just a few sessions. I would try all of these before surgery. Good luck

[quote]irfhdah wrote:
I wanted to see if someone could help me identify what is wrong with my shoulder.I am living in China now and the doctors here are not great at sports medicine as far is I can tell(there is also a significant communications barrier) so I thought I would ask on here for opinions before I go to see one.

Basically my shoulder started hurting in about september. I think it might have started when I was doing some flys. I stopped doing flys, upright rows and layed off the overhead pressing for a while and that seemed to help. Then I started ovehead pressing again and the pain seemed managable so I figure it would just work itself out. So, about three weeks ago I was noticing that the pain was starting to get worse. I decided I just need to take a complete break from upper body lifting and am at the start of my second week.

My symptoms are: The pain is in the upper front portion of the shoulder right about where the humerus meets the clavicle. Pain when overhead pressing but only at the very bottom range of motion. Once I get up an inch or two not really any pain. All front pushing below shoulder hight was ok until about three weeks ago. I still can go full strength with the pushing but it was starting to also make my shoulder sore a bit. Pull ups dont bother me. Dips, really bother me if I go below 90 degrees.

The biggest pain I feel is when my arm is extended at a diagonal up and back or if I cross very tightly in front of my body (like I am trying to hug my other shoulder). When not doing anything there is sort of like a very dull ache but not really pain. If I ice it it feels really good and the pain is nearly gone. If I dont extend my arm out, I have full range of motion without any pain even going back at an angle like I desgribed above.

Does this sound like something that rest will heal or is it something like the SLAP tear I saw in other posts that requires surgury? If it does sound like something that needs to be done surgically, is it urgent? I only usually get back to the US about once a year and I certainly would rather have it dont there than here.

Thanks for the help! [/quote]

Dont need ART, sounds like classic supraspinatus tendonitis, does not seem like a SLAP, REST, ice, NSAIDS, light rotator cuff work and rowing.

Thanks for the great responses! I was starting to get really worked up after reading all those slap tear articles.

One last question: back squats are a little uncomfortable because they get my arm right in that angle/position that it doesnt like so I assume I should just lay off of them like everything else for the moment. Can I still deadlift though? I dont feel any pain when I do that.

[quote]irfhdah wrote:
Thanks for the great responses! I was starting to get really worked up after reading all those slap tear articles.

One last question: back squats are a little uncomfortable because they get my arm right in that angle/position that it doesnt like so I assume I should just lay off of them like everything else for the moment. Can I still deadlift though? I dont feel any pain when I do that. [/quote]

Front squat

Deadlift is ok

My wife finally made me go get an MRI. The doctor said I have a less than 25% tear in my rotator cuff (it is right at the top of the subscapulus where it meets the superscapulus. He said just dont raise my arm laterally above my shoulder, avoid inward pressing movements and rest for 3 months. If it still hurts come back and see him.

So, what does that mean about exersizes I can perform? I did a pretty nasty deadlift session this morning with some light front squatting afterwards and my shoulder seemed ok. It is hard to tell though. When I work out I think my adrenaline takes over because my shoulder usually stops hurting at all. About an hour or two later it gets sore again. Would deadlift, front squat, decline bench, seated rows, triceps pushdown, biceps curls all be ok? They avoid the motions the doc told me to stay away from.

[quote]irfhdah wrote:
My wife finally made me go get an MRI. The doctor said I have a less than 25% tear in my rotator cuff (it is right at the top of the subscapulus where it meets the superscapulus. He said just dont raise my arm laterally above my shoulder, avoid inward pressing movements and rest for 3 months. If it still hurts come back and see him.

So, what does that mean about exersizes I can perform? I did a pretty nasty deadlift session this morning with some light front squatting afterwards and my shoulder seemed ok. It is hard to tell though. When I work out I think my adrenaline takes over because my shoulder usually stops hurting at all. About an hour or two later it gets sore again. Would deadlift, front squat, decline bench, seated rows, triceps pushdown, biceps curls all be ok? They avoid the motions the doc told me to stay away from. [/quote]

Less than 25% tear is a small cuff tear, probably 1cm or less. You can successfully rehab this pretty easily, in fact a good percentage of full blown cuff tears can rehab successfully. OP are you familiar with rotator cuff exercises? These would be 1. on my to-do list. Generally speaking, the exercise I’d be most careful with is the bench. Did the ortho give u a script maybe to pop in a physio’s place just to get a home exercise program and some advice on lifting, how is your insurance?

[quote]irfhdah wrote:
My wife finally made me go get an MRI. The doctor said I have a less than 25% tear in my rotator cuff (it is right at the top of the subscapulus where it meets the superscapulus. He said just dont raise my arm laterally above my shoulder, avoid inward pressing movements and rest for 3 months. If it still hurts come back and see him.

So, what does that mean about exersizes I can perform? I did a pretty nasty deadlift session this morning with some light front squatting afterwards and my shoulder seemed ok. It is hard to tell though. When I work out I think my adrenaline takes over because my shoulder usually stops hurting at all. About an hour or two later it gets sore again. Would deadlift, front squat, decline bench, seated rows, triceps pushdown, biceps curls all be ok? They avoid the motions the doc told me to stay away from. [/quote]

I’ve heard just about enough of this. Had you taken bholl’s advice to heart, you’d still be training with that tear.

And to hear him back pedal by saying how relatively small it is sickens me. That small tear can very easily grow to a mid-size tear without proper intervention. And that mid-size tear can very easily grow into a large tear without proper intervention.

Do you see the bullet you dodged here by listening to your wife? This is a person who has much more vested interest in your well being as opposed to bholl who can hide behind the anonymity of his laptop.

The bottom line, OP, is that WHATEVER exercise causes irritation or outright pain should be avoided right now.

I cringe at the thought of how much more damage could have been caused had you not gotten the MRI and continued front squatting and dead lifting.

And you need to tell us how you perform these movements. If you have a relatively recent video, that would be better. DO NOT go and video yourself with challenging weight just for the sake of describing.

Just because the doc said to avoid certain planes of movement does NOT give you license to go heavy on anything that falls outside of this domain.

Focus on the rehab and train around that injury. If you want to - AT YOUR OWN RISK - try movements that you suspect but are not sure could irritate the shoulder.

Be sure to go light, stop each and every set well before failure, do less volume than you normally would, and this is MOST IMPORTANT: take note of how your body responds AFTER the workouts. As you found this out empirically, when you’re lifting, you’re too much in the moment and not particularly attentive to any warning signs your body is trying to give.

edited for clarity

I guess slaying you once today already wasn’t enough:

In response to part A (you would still be training)

See exhibit A: REST, ICE, NSAIDS, light cuff work and rows…game set match

Exhibit B: how many times can you say intervention in one sentence? Refer to Exhibit A: Cuff work

Exhibit C: In response to: Small Cuff tear progressing to large cuff tear: refer to exhibit A: Rest, Cuff Work

Exhibit D: Ya the bullet he dodged missed him and went straight to his checkbook. The plan of care has remained the same: Rest, Ice NSAIDS, cuff work and rows henceforth the uselessness of the MRI.

Exhibit E: RIVETING advice… … …

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

I guess slaying you once today already wasn’t enough:

In response to part A (you would still be training)

See exhibit A: REST, ICE, NSAIDS, light cuff work and rows…game set match

Exhibit B: how many times can you say intervention in one sentence? Refer to Exhibit A: Cuff work

Exhibit C: In response to: Small Cuff tear progressing to large cuff tear: refer to exhibit A: Rest, Cuff Work

Exhibit D: Ya the bullet he dodged missed him and went straight to his checkbook. The plan of care has remained the same: Rest, Ice NSAIDS, cuff work and rows henceforth the uselessness of the MRI.

Exhibit E: RIVETING advice… … …

[/quote]

Did you use the word “slay”? What are you some punk teenager? And you did nothing remotely resembling what you claim.

Now you’re officially at troll status.

Any argument you make on your behalf fails for several following reasons:

You specifically told the OP that front squats and deadlifts are okay. Yet you failed to delve deeply enough into the matter.

And lo and behold: the OP returns to say that after a deadlift/front squat session, his shoulder is in pain.

So tell me again how front squats and deadlifts are okay for this individual at this current time?

Oh that’s right: you FAILED when you told him that it’s probably tendonitis. See the quote below:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

Dont need ART, sounds like classic supraspinatus tendonitis, does not seem like a SLAP, REST, ice, NSAIDS, light rotator cuff work and rowing. [/quote]

Now you’re clinging onto the fact that both the tear - which is the CORRECT ISSUE discovered only after an MRI - and your INcorrect take on the subject share some of the same rehab treatments.

And I’ll say this again: had the OP followed your advice, he would have continued to perform exercise that will make his condition worse.

And let’s take your most recent advice to him:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

Less than 25% tear is a small cuff tear, probably 1cm or less. You can successfully rehab this pretty easily, in fact a good percentage of full blown cuff tears can rehab successfully. OP are you familiar with rotator cuff exercises? These would be 1. on my to-do list. Generally speaking, the exercise I’d be most careful with is the bench. Did the ortho give u a script maybe to pop in a physio’s place just to get a home exercise program and some advice on lifting, how is your insurance?[/quote]

So other than the avoid-the-bench advice, what other insight do you have on the type of exercises and how to perform them?

As stated in trivium’s thread, you FAILED to ask this particular OP in what manner he does his front squats.

You also FAILED to ask how he performs his deadlifts. You didn’t even ask the OP what his current workout program looks like? All these subtle cues and nuances that someone who is actually willing to take responsibility for the advice he gives you lack.

You talk a good game but little by little, you’re exposing yourself as an insecure excuse for a man who gets his rocks off by giving opinions here with the implication that what you think is every bit as good as an in-person exam.

This makes you irresponsible.

When I called you out and stated that you should tell people that, either: 1) your opinions on a subject is just that - an opinion OR; 2) back up what you say - since you’re so adamant that you know better than everyone else - to contact these posters and let them know this is your official diagnosis (Unbelievably laughable to even think that someone can do so via online forum) and to give them your PT license number and name.

Which leads me to ask - are you actually a working PT? If so, you’re the first one I’ve ever met that’s moronic enough to dispense such off-the-cuff advice as the gospel truth.

In fact, why don’t you provide your PT license number? I would love to report you to the appropriate agencies and see what they think about someone doing what you do.

@BHOLL: Thanks for your response dude! I have insurance here in China but it only covers catastrophic things so it would not cover this. Also, the population of chinese people that weightlift is not high so most doctors do not have experience with these kinds of injuries and there are no trainers that I know of. Now, I am sure if I went to Beijing or Shanghai I could find really good people that do that kind of work but not where I am.

I have looked at some websites on RC exercises. Basically the ones with the band where you work inside, then outside and face pulls. Are those enough? As for my other work outs, the deadlifting and front squatting does not seem to bother my shoulder much at all. It is the pressing exercises or anything I do over the head. I did jumping jacks about two weeks ago and that really aggrivated it. What kind of exercises and what weight can I do in your opinion?

@56x11: Whats up dude! Thanks for jumping in to help me out. Take it easy on BHOLL. This is a forum and not a doctor’s office. Of course everything on here is just opinion. Everybody posting on here should know that. I am just looking for other peoples opinion. I think that the advice BHOLL gives out is helpful to a lot of people.

So you would just suggest basically maintenance training at moderate weights for the exercizes that don’t make my shoulder sore and lay off - really light weight for things like pressing exercises after soreness has gone from my shoulder is that correct? Honestly I am just trying to get opinions about how to work around the injury.

[quote]irfhdah wrote:
@56x11: Whats up dude! Thanks for jumping in to help me out. Take it easy on BHOLL. This is a forum and not a doctor’s office. Of course everything on here is just opinion. Everybody posting on here should know that. I am just looking for other peoples opinion. I think that the advice BHOLL gives out is helpful to a lot of people.
[/quote]

Yes, most people do realize that this is an internet forum and to take any information presented with a grain of salt. And you sound like you have a good grasp of that concept.

However, human nature is a funny thing. You take someone who is:

  1. desperate for help

  2. is of the mindset that he will ONLY LISTEN TO ADVICE THAT MEET HIS PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS ON PROPER TREATMENT

Now you take this person (and believe me, you’ll see your fair share in this subforum and similar subforums), and spoon feed him WRONG INFO that he just happens to WANT to hear and that is a recipe for disaster.

You were lucky in that you listened to your wife and got the MRI. Others, who come here desperate for some guidance will, quite often, blindly follow the smoothest talker.

And if life teaches us anything, talking a good game is no guarantee that it’s backed up with that rare combination of KNOWLEDGE EXPERIENCE AND a GENUINE DESIRE to see the other person improve.

The reason I vehemently questioned the other poster is because I’ve seen a history of him giving text book answers to a given issue. Yet I’ve not ONCE read a post which shows all three of the aforementioned qualities.

Look at this thread:

The OP requested help for his shoulder. The initial response was fairly standard. When the OP requested specific exercises, here was the exchange:

[quote]Josann wrote:

Could you suggest some eccentric exercises I could try?

Josann[/quote]

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
eccentric dumbbell curl
eccentric shoulder flexion

External rotation at 0
Internal rotation at 0[/quote]

Just basic exercises taken out of any PT text book. But notice the LACK of detail in how this PARTICULAR OP should do these movements. No examples of regression or progression in the movement. And no alternative movements should the OP find the above ineffective.

And if you happen to read trivium’s recent thread, you’d see how this same person kept arguing against MRI or any imaging. It got to the point he would do his impotent best to belittle anyone who argued for the need for imaging.

But look at this little gem in yet another thread regarding MRI for another OP xianchixan:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/postMessagePrep.do?messageType=reply&topicId=5890108"eId=5921376

From a post dated 12/12/13

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

If your 23 and having “chronic pain” there is something someone is missing, get the MRI and get someone of quality to read it. [/quote]

From a post dated 1/20/2014

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

Next step MRI results, try grastoning the area[/quote]

So how is it that MRI is acceptable for this OP and yet he is so adamant that it’s a waste for the trivium?

He or anyone else can argue that they are two different cases. I don’t buy it. If you read trivium’s thread in this subforum, this same person is so anti-imaging that it simply contradicts his prior statements on the subject.

Moreover, trivium, in order to get back to heavy lifting (his passion) as expeditiously as possible, should IMO and IME leave no stone unturned. So after the manual testing, all he has to do is respectfully ask the doc for further testing to confirm or disprove what the manual tests showed.

xianchixan, who was given the advice to try MRI and graston, has been through a laundry list of protocols.

Well, doesn’t that give some credence to the argument that trivium, in order to dramatically reduce his chances of ending up like xianchixan, get the imaging done from the get go?

If you have first hand knowledge working with people AFTER they burn up all their PT visits; and if you read enough of this person’s posts it’s impossible to not see a discrepancy. There is this need that he has to come across as the all-knowing authority in this subforum. This and his overall hubris has grown to a point where I had to call it.

No self-respecting professional physical therapist that I know engages in the type of behavior that was recently on display.

Now to answer your particular question:

[quote]irfhdah wrote:

So you would just suggest basically maintenance training at moderate weights for the exercizes that don’t make my shoulder sore and lay off - really light weight for things like pressing exercises after soreness has gone from my shoulder is that correct? Honestly I am just trying to get opinions about how to work around the injury.[/quote]

I recommend that you put the shoulder rehab as a priority. The sooner you can resolve this issue, the sooner you can resume a more comprehensive strength and conditioning program. Despite the language barrier you may have to deal with where you are, it may not be a bad idea to work with a local PT. Surely, with enough effort, you should find one that can speak English and is good at his job.

As for training around the injury, there are always going to be two opposing arguments.

One side will advocate going full throttle on exercises that are not contraindicated. This camp’s reasoning is that you only live once/life is short/nothing ventured, nothing gained; therefore, if a movement is not going to interfere with the shoulder rehab, why not lift like you got a giant pair…?

I prefer a more conservative approach. First of all, hard training has the potential to take away from your body’s recuperative abilities. Remember - the main goal for you right now is to get that shoulder (relatively) healthy. So, if your body has to deal with recovering from the shoulder rehab, heavy/intense training for the other body parts, and being in a foreign land (the stress level of this, obviously, will vary from person to person), just how much margin do you give yourself…? Not much.

Furthermore, just what if Murphy’s Law kicks you in the teeth and aggressive training the non-injured body parts, you suffer another injury somewhere else? Don’t fall for the delusion that things like this only happen to other people.

So, ultimately, the decision is yours. Now you have my thoughts on the matter.

Good luck and learn the art of listening to your body.

Op first off, thank you

Now, let me quickly dismiss the above:

In response to you getting an MRI:

The first question any doctor should ask is are you willing to consider surgical intervention? If you are not, then an MRI is not warranted, plain and simple.
Secondly, I am not sure why this guy is obsessed with the fact that you found out you have a small cuff tear, your treatment outcome is still the same (repetitively Rest, ice, cuff work, and some rows) irrespective of diagnosis. See the following information in which I capitalized the most important parts.

[Imaging in evaluating rotator cuff tears].
Abstract
Diagnostic imaging in a patient with shoulder pain should be used only after a comprehensive clinical evaluation of the shoulder. X-ray and ultrasonography are the basic diagnostic tools; computed tomography and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) should be used only with certain indications. Ultrasonography and MRI have comparable accuracy for identifying and measuring full-thickness rotator cuff tears, but the accuracy for identifying partial-thickness still needs to be improved. MR arthrography has significantly improved sensitivity and specificity for partial-thickness tears of the cuff. Only ultrasound provides a real-time examination tool during shoulder movements. Moreover, dynamic ultrasonography can assess the contraction patterns of the supraspinatus and infraspinatus muscles, which may improve decision making in the treatment of shoulder diseases. In depicting fatty atrophy of the supraspinatus and infraspinatus muscles, MRI remains the reference standard. MRI should not be used as a diagnostic screening tool in patients with chronic shoulder pain because it does not appear to significantly affect TREATMENT OR OUTCOME.
PMID: 17713757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

does following evidenced based practice get included in the Knowledge portion of your little slogan?

Magnetic resonance imaging assessment of the rotator cuff: is it really accurate?
Wnorowski DC, Levinsohn EM, Chamberlain BC, McAndrew DL.
Author information
Abstract
Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) is used increasingly for evaluating the rotator cuff. This study of 39 shoulders (38 patients) compared the accuracy of MRI interpretation of rotator cuff integrity by a group of community hospital radiologists (clinical community scenario, CCS) with that of a musculoskeletal radiologist (experienced specialist scenario, ESS), relative to arthroscopy. For the CCS subgroup, the sensitivity, specificity, positive predictive value (PV), negative PV, and accuracy for partial tears were: 0%, 68%, 0%, 82%, and 59%, respectively; for complete tears: 56%, 73%, 36%, 86%, and 69%, respectively; and for all tears combined: 85%, 52%, 50%, 87%, and 64%, respectively. For the ESS subgroup, the respective values for partial tears were: 20%, 88%, 20%, 88%, and 79%, respectively; for complete tears: 78%, 83%, 58%, 92%, and 82%, respectively; and for all tears: 71%, 71%, 59%, 81%, and 71%, respectively. We concluded that MRI assessment of the ROTATOR CUFF WAS NOT ACCURATE relative to arthroscopy. MRI was most helpful if the result was negative, and MRI diagnosis of partial tear was of little value. Considering the high cost ofshoulder MRI, this study has significant implications for the evaluation of patients with possible rotator cuff pathology.

The painful shoulder. Zeroing in on the most common causes.
McMahon PJ, Sallis RE.
Abstract
Most shoulder problems seen by the primary care physician involve impingement syndrome or problems at the acromioclavicular joint. Despite the complexity of the structures involved, most of these conditions can be diagnosed and treated without difficulty. MRI or other imaging studies are seldom needed but can be used to confirm a questionable diagnosis. Referral to an orthopedic surgeon is appropriate if shoulder problems persist for 3 to 6 months or if there is evidence of a medium or large rotator cuff tear, severe shoulder stiffness, or a complicated fracture.

Abstract:
About half the population has at least one episode of shoulder pain yearly. History and clinical examination are cornerstones in the evaluation of the patient. Shoulder pain at the work place is associated with job strain: lack of control and work with elevated arms and hand tools. Clinical skills and knowledge about red and yellow flags and biomechanics are essential to perform a systematic and reliable evaluation. The diagnostic validity of clinical tests for rotator cuff tear, impingement syndrome and superior labral tears is EQUAL OR BETTER than ultrasound and magnetic resonance imaging. Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs and cortico-steroidal injections have documented short-term pain relief. Additionally, the physician should attempt to give the patient simple advice and reinforce active coping strategies. One randomized study suggests that a proper physiotherapy regimen and surgery are equally effective for the impingement syndrome. Further research should address the cost-effectiveness of diagnostic methods and treatments.

Since OP has take words out of context, again:
I am not here to hold anyone’s hand with exercise, eccentric based exercise is pretty self explanatory a simple youtube or google search would suffice. Aint nobody got time for dat.

The MRI recommendation came after OP had MULTIPLE failed attempts at conservative care, but of course you didn’t read the thread.

Please leave other threads out of this conversation, I’ll be over there in a minute to slay your subjective opinion again in which you fail to cite any evidence for your opinion besides butchered quotes from random websites in which you try and pass off as evidence. And no, MRI will not dramatically reduce the chances he will end up like xyz, another factless claim.

Now onto OP’s request:

Overhead pressing, bad idea.

Front squats and deadlifts are ok, nothings changed with that as long as they stay asymptomatic.

Considering you wrote you have a partial thickness subscap tear if I remember correct , the subscap functions as an internal rotator, id be careful with things like pec flies, benching, any heavy pushing or activities with arm overhead (like lat pulldowns), dips, etc.
If lateral raises cause lasting soreness and irritation, cut them out. Me personally I would let it calm down and train below shoulder height with pain free exercises only.

Right now simple cuff work would be internal rotation, external rotation at 0 degrees with some resistance bands, careful with the face pulls, I like them for healthy cuffs and for progression from basic cuff. Some t’s y’s w’s and I’s would be good. If any hurt, cut them out immediately.

I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology.

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology. [/quote]

Then you just conceded to the fact that you have ZERO real world experience working with the injured population.

Yet your rhetoric implies that you are all-knowing on any given subject.

This makes you a fraud.

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology. [/quote]

Then you just conceded to the fact that you have ZERO real world experience working with the injured population.

Yet your rhetoric implies that you are all-knowing on any given subject.

This makes you a fraud. [/quote]

Nope, just a guy who knows a lot more about a specific subject then a specific person (you).

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology.
[/quote]

So he admits that he neither has formal training nor does he have real-world experience.

Check out this statement he made in a post from last year.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/BHOLL#myForums/thread/5805447/

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
I’ve posted on here before about nagging golfer’s elbow pain and I’ve seen many people also have the same problem. I started going to a chiropractor right next to my gym a couple months ago. I was going for my nagging back pain issues which are all but non-existent now. I have squatted and deadlifted more than I ever have and pain free. But I also mentioned my forearm/elbow issue and he has this laser machine that they’ve used about 3x so far.

I’ve been doing chinups and pullups and curls pain free since those treatments! I have no idea what the laser is called but for the guys who have the same problem you may want to look into something like that. I’ve done a lot of massaging and finger extensions with the rubberbands as well but this treatment was the game changer. [/quote]

yup got it in my clinic

physio
[/quote]

READ THOSE LAST SEVEN WORDS

They sure do IMPLY that he is a PT or in the profession.

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology. [/quote]

Then you just conceded to the fact that you have ZERO real world experience working with the injured population.

Yet your rhetoric implies that you are all-knowing on any given subject.

This makes you a fraud. [/quote]

Nope, just a guy who knows a lot more about a specific subject then a specific person (you).

[/quote]

You haven’t proven anything to that effect. Now, you’re just making blanket ad hominem statements to try and discredit me.

And I’m just having a ball outing your pathetic tail.

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

Medical professional? nope work at a desk, but I have worked in conjunction with them and am familiar with LOE.
[/quote]

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology.
[/quote]

So he admits that he neither has formal training nor does he have real-world experience.

Check out this statement he made in a post from last year.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/BHOLL#myForums/thread/5805447/

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
I’ve posted on here before about nagging golfer’s elbow pain and I’ve seen many people also have the same problem. I started going to a chiropractor right next to my gym a couple months ago. I was going for my nagging back pain issues which are all but non-existent now. I have squatted and deadlifted more than I ever have and pain free. But I also mentioned my forearm/elbow issue and he has this laser machine that they’ve used about 3x so far.

I’ve been doing chinups and pullups and curls pain free since those treatments! I have no idea what the laser is called but for the guys who have the same problem you may want to look into something like that. I’ve done a lot of massaging and finger extensions with the rubberbands as well but this treatment was the game changer. [/quote]

yup got it in my clinic

physio
[/quote]

READ THOSE LAST SEVEN WORDS PEOPLE

They sure do IMPLY that he is a PT or in the profession.

I just LOVE it when the truth comes out.

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology. [/quote]

Then you just conceded to the fact that you have ZERO real world experience working with the injured population.

Yet your rhetoric implies that you are all-knowing on any given subject.

This makes you a fraud. [/quote]

Nope, just a guy who knows a lot more about a specific subject then a specific person (you).

[/quote]

You haven’t proven anything to that effect. Now, you’re just making blanket ad hominem statements to try and discredit me.

And I’m just having a ball outing your pathetic tail.

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

Medical professional? nope work at a desk, but I have worked in conjunction with them and am familiar with LOE.
[/quote]

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology.
[/quote]

So he admits that he neither has formal training nor does he have real-world experience.

Check out this statement he made in a post from last year.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/BHOLL#myForums/thread/5805447/

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
I’ve posted on here before about nagging golfer’s elbow pain and I’ve seen many people also have the same problem. I started going to a chiropractor right next to my gym a couple months ago. I was going for my nagging back pain issues which are all but non-existent now. I have squatted and deadlifted more than I ever have and pain free. But I also mentioned my forearm/elbow issue and he has this laser machine that they’ve used about 3x so far.

I’ve been doing chinups and pullups and curls pain free since those treatments! I have no idea what the laser is called but for the guys who have the same problem you may want to look into something like that. I’ve done a lot of massaging and finger extensions with the rubberbands as well but this treatment was the game changer. [/quote]

yup got it in my clinic

physio
[/quote]

READ THOSE LAST SEVEN WORDS PEOPLE

They sure do IMPLY that he is a PT or in the profession.

I just LOVE it when the truth comes out. [/quote]

Victims of Medical Imaging Technology (VOMIT) is a real thing. The best way to convince someone they’re broken is to show them imaging that displays “abnormal” findings.

This thread caught my eye because my gf swam in college and has dodgy shoulders.

One article in New York Times, or anywhere else for that matter, isn’t going to sway me against MRIs. Common sense dictates that all options be considered and judiciously applied AS NECESSARY.

In fact, it’s easy to play the cite-an-expert game:

The author, M.D. and Clinical Journal of Sport Medicine Emerging Media Editor, concludes with:

“The article by Kolata in the New York Times presents little if any evidence that MRI scans are indeed overused in Sports Medicine, and it is my opinion that the views of a few individuals plus a couple of retrospective studies don’t really form a convincing argument to support the inference in the title of author’s article, that MRIs are indeed overused in Sports Medicine.”