T Nation

Should We Bomb Iran?

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

I’ll take no 2 please.[/quote]

This is not a muffin shop.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Yep. Iran had nothing against discussing those until they asked Iran to stop enriching BEFORE entering the negociations. It’s reminescent of the US/Israeli stance on the international consensus reintroduced by the Arab league a couple of months. Israel insists on getting the fruits of the negociations BEFORE sitting down to talk.[/quote]

They’re pretty meager fruits if you ask me. They west gets what? A non-nuclear Iran that remains that way. Iran gets what? Advanced technology that would take them years and cost them millions or billions to develop themselves.

To me, it looks like a pretty good deal; especially if Iran’s assertion that nuclear reactor are necessary only for it’s energy needs.

But it doesn’t look that way, does it?

[quote]pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
Yep. Iran had nothing against discussing those until they asked Iran to stop enriching BEFORE entering the negociations. It’s reminescent of the US/Israeli stance on the international consensus reintroduced by the Arab league a couple of months. Israel insists on getting the fruits of the negociations BEFORE sitting down to talk.

They’re pretty meager fruits if you ask me. They west gets what? A non-nuclear Iran that remains that way. Iran gets what? Advanced technology that would take them years and cost them millions or billions to develop themselves.

To me, it looks like a pretty good deal; especially if Iran’s assertion that nuclear reactor are necessary only for it’s energy needs.

But it doesn’t look that way, does it?
[/quote]

they definitely want the capability to produce nuclear weapons, regardless of what they may claim. The question is, are they dumb enough to use them?

India and Pakistan have had nukes for a while now, but both those countries have yet to be turned into parking lots by each other.

I think they want it to be part of the in-crowd. Remember kids, all the cool kids on the block have nukes!

[quote]kroby wrote:
It’s time we stop worrying about civilians. If you’re going to war, you’re meaning to kill lots of people. When civilians realize their government won’t protect them, they may just throw that government out.

If Phoenix was about to get bombed, I would leave. No where to go, but I sure wouldn’t be there. See? Civilian making a choice to not get killed. As for the rest of the morons that think they won’t get hurt… Darwin awards for all of them.

Sanctions are a paper tiger. As long as Russia and China have any interest, even if it’s just to object to American interests, nothing will ever happen.[/quote]

I am certain whoever is going to bomb phoenix would give you plenty of time to get out

Better yet, after you found out that half your family has been killed, I bet you hail the attackers as liberators and heroes, and harbour no desire to kill each and every one of them.

Get real. Soon as civilians start dropping like flies, we get fucked. I don’t think the Iranians despise their government that much that such a cost of life would be acceptable to them.

[quote]JeffR wrote:

The thing that people forget is that iran is almost universally regarded as the number one supporter of terrorism.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/04/30/ap3669276.html

That makes comparisons between it and India/Pakistan specious.

[/quote]

Pakistan’s intelligence service (ISI) has very strong links with both the Taliban and al Qaeda and has supported groups behind numerous terrorist attacks on completely civilian targets, primarily in India. It’s former director Hamid Gul is under a sort of quasi house arrest but still holds substantial power within the ISI and is believed to be in occasional contact with Mullah Omar and is a strong suporter of bin Laden.

Gul, incidently, is a strong supporter of the radical islamist movement which itself has substantial power and a quite significant chance of taking some measure of power if Musharif’s rickety regime collapses.

If I had to wager, I’d say 5-1 that if a nuke goes off in the US in the next twenty years that it will be of Pakistani origin rather than Iranian, assuming that it’s from one of the two. The probability of that event itself happening is pretty low on the whole though.

So comparing Iran to Pakistan is highly relevent.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
The thing that people forget is that iran is almost universally regarded as the number one supporter of terrorism.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/04/30/ap3669276.html
[/quote]

You make a very dubious claim and provide a US source that claims nothing of the sort. The rise of terrorism is directly linked to the US-led invasion of Iraq. Heck, I even have official US goverment documents that link the two.

While the case can be made that Tehran supports terrorism in the region, the US supports terrorism and dispatches its army to terrorize people around the world. Every serious worldwide poll taken these last five years puts the USA on top of the threats to world peace (closely followed by Israel).

What prompted you to say that “iran (sic) is almost universally regarded as the number one supporter of terrorism”? Try not to confuse your desires with the reality.

[quote]pookie wrote:
They’re pretty meager fruits if you ask me. They west gets what? A non-nuclear Iran that remains that way. [/quote]

No. They’re OK with a nuclear Iran as long as they take total control of the Iranian nuclear project.

They have already overcome the major challenges. They are years away from producing weapon-grade fuel though, assuming that’s what they ultimately want.

[quote]Ren wrote:
they definitely want the capability to produce nuclear weapons, regardless of what they may claim. The question is, are they dumb enough to use them?
[/quote]

I wouldn’t be so sure. You underestimate the reach and value of Fatwas in the theocracy. The Ayatollah passed one that prohibits nuclear weaponry. Of course, it could be just a scam. Personally, I don’t think they want nuclear weapons. What they want, is the option to quickly devellop them in case their sovereignty is threatened. But let’s assume you’re right for the sake of argument.

Iranians have been closely watching when the US went against the wishes of the UN and attacked Iraq based on false info. At that time they had two choices: Side with the US or get cracking on deterrents. They allegedely tried to negociate with the US but the offer has been turned down by Rove, as reported by the Swiss ambassador who acted as mediator.

It’s therefore only natural that they seek to protect themselves from what the population of Tehran currently perceives as an imminent attack. If your neighbor’s wife got gangraped and his kids killed because he didn’t have guns defend them, don’t you think you’d get one or two in case it happened to you? I know I would.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is arming the insurgency in Iraq, preventing free elections in their own country, oppressing their people, developing nuclear weapons, and destabilising a vital region of the world sufficient cause for bombing Iran?
[/quote]

You have never even been to Iran…WTF do you know? My good friend who is Iranian by birth just got back from Tehran visiting her family and insists the people of Iran have no animosities toward the West.

She further states there is a big difference between the people in the country and the government that is controlled by the “Supreme Leader” and the “Assembly of Experts”.

She insists that the vast majority of the youth aren’t even practicing Muslims…like many of our own “Christians” in this country. It is an extremely polar situation with the older fundamentalists in control and the youth just sitting by waiting for the inevitable US invasion.

I guarantee you that if we ever touched Iran the ME would be lost to us forever. We have allies in the youth of that country and it would be a bad thing to disrupt that.

Ditto to the previous post. A good buddy of mine is married to a Persian (Iranian girl) and has been to Iran twice. He was resitant to go but came back with nothing but great words about their country. Their trying to get me to go skiing with them in Iran next January…I’m seriously considering it.

[quote]Ren wrote:
kroby wrote:
It’s time we stop worrying about civilians. If you’re going to war, you’re meaning to kill lots of people. When civilians realize their government won’t protect them, they may just throw that government out.

If Phoenix was about to get bombed, I would leave. No where to go, but I sure wouldn’t be there. See? Civilian making a choice to not get killed. As for the rest of the morons that think they won’t get hurt… Darwin awards for all of them.

Sanctions are a paper tiger. As long as Russia and China have any interest, even if it’s just to object to American interests, nothing will ever happen.

I am certain whoever is going to bomb phoenix would give you plenty of time to get out[/quote]

Did not Iraq know that they were about to go into war? Do you think Iran wouldn’t get the same intel beforehand??? Lots of people left Iraq.

You mean, separate from the Saddam regime that killed hundreds of thousands, most likely some being a part of their families?

You mean the Mullahs and the ultra conservative hardliners, right? Because the people don’t have a say. Hell, they even have to conform to haircut regulations, or be punished. You think they have any say? They can’t even fraternize with the opposite sex in an ice cream cafe. That’s a law. From their government.

edit: cue Empire Strikes Back music.

All I’m saying is when America tries to win in the court of public opinion, failure is the end result. If we’re to state, publicly, beforehand, in any future military action, that we expect HEAVY casualties and loss of civilian life… it won’t be a surprise. The world can hate us all they want. Big deal. They do already. Boo hoo.

People who visited Germany in the 1930’s would come back and talk about what a wonderful country it was and how nice the people were. The Nazis were just an aberration; ruling would mellow them.

What’s happening now in Iran is equivalent to the Nazi troops entering the Rhineland in 1935 — we better nip this shit in the bud and soon or we’ll have WWWIII, complete with bio-weapons and Iranian whackjobs with nukes.

Bomb the sites, clamp down HARD economically and try to kill all their leadership. That’s the way to go.

[quote]kroby wrote:
Ren wrote:
Bomb them to nothingness? The civilian casualties would be catastrophic.

Right now our only option is to tighten economic sanctions. With Sarcozy stating his desire to take a harder stance against Iran we potentially have an allied vote in the war council, at least as far as sanctions go.

It’s time we stop worrying about civilians. If you’re going to war, you’re meaning to kill lots of people. When civilians realize their government won’t protect them, they may just throw that government out.
[/quote]

Except that that has never happened in the history of modern warfare. We killed Japanese civilians by the millions, and the Germans weren’t too much better off, and Belgrade, and…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
People who visited Germany in the 1930’s would come back and talk about what a wonderful country it was and how nice the people were. The Nazis were just an aberration; ruling would mellow them.

What’s happening now in Iran is equivalent to the Nazi troops entering the Rhineland in 1935 — we better nip this shit in the bud and soon or we’ll have WWWIII, complete with bio-weapons and Iranian whackjobs with nukes.

Bomb the sites, clamp down HARD economically and try to kill all their leadership. That’s the way to go.[/quote]

Nothing like stupid historical analogies, well done. And Which people were those coming back and saying Hitler’s Germany was beautiful? Not politicians, and not most of the Western press corps. No one I can think of besides overt fascist sympathizers like Lindbergh and J.F.C. Fuller.

[quote]etaco wrote:
JeffR wrote:

The thing that people forget is that iran is almost universally regarded as the number one supporter of terrorism.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/04/30/ap3669276.html

That makes comparisons between it and India/Pakistan specious.

Pakistan’s intelligence service (ISI) has very strong links with both the Taliban and al Qaeda and has supported groups behind numerous terrorist attacks on completely civilian targets, primarily in India. It’s former director Hamid Gul is under a sort of quasi house arrest but still holds substantial power within the ISI and is believed to be in occasional contact with Mullah Omar and is a strong suporter of bin Laden.

Gul, incidently, is a strong supporter of the radical islamist movement which itself has substantial power and a quite significant chance of taking some measure of power if Musharif’s rickety regime collapses.

If I had to wager, I’d say 5-1 that if a nuke goes off in the US in the next twenty years that it will be of Pakistani origin rather than Iranian, assuming that it’s from one of the two. The probability of that event itself happening is pretty low on the whole though.

So comparing Iran to Pakistan is highly relevent.[/quote]

Facts, meet JeffR. I wouldn’t expect a response if I were you.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
People who visited Germany in the 1930’s would come back and talk about what a wonderful country it was and how nice the people were. The Nazis were just an aberration; ruling would mellow them.

What’s happening now in Iran is equivalent to the Nazi troops entering the Rhineland in 1935 — we better nip this shit in the bud and soon or we’ll have WWWIII, complete with bio-weapons and Iranian whackjobs with nukes.

Bomb the sites, clamp down HARD economically and try to kill all their leadership. That’s the way to go.

Nothing like stupid historical analogies, well done. And Which people were those coming back and saying Hitler’s Germany was beautiful? Not politicians, and not most of the Western press corps. No one I can think of besides overt fascist sympathizers like Lindbergh and J.F.C. Fuller.[/quote]

Who is saying the mullah’s Iran is beautiful other than some anti-semites? The Iranian people allegedly hate their government.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
People who visited Germany in the 1930’s would come back and talk about what a wonderful country it was and how nice the people were. The Nazis were just an aberration; ruling would mellow them.

What’s happening now in Iran is equivalent to the Nazi troops entering the Rhineland in 1935 — we better nip this shit in the bud and soon or we’ll have WWWIII, complete with bio-weapons and Iranian whackjobs with nukes.

Bomb the sites, clamp down HARD economically and try to kill all their leadership. That’s the way to go.

Nothing like stupid historical analogies, well done. And Which people were those coming back and saying Hitler’s Germany was beautiful? Not politicians, and not most of the Western press corps. No one I can think of besides overt fascist sympathizers like Lindbergh and J.F.C. Fuller.

Who is saying the mullah’s Iran is beautiful other than some anti-semites? The Iranian people allegedly hate their government.

[/quote]

That’s my point. Headhunter believes otherwise.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
People who visited Germany in the 1930’s would come back and talk about what a wonderful country it was and how nice the people were. The Nazis were just an aberration; ruling would mellow them.

What’s happening now in Iran is equivalent to the Nazi troops entering the Rhineland in 1935 — we better nip this shit in the bud and soon or we’ll have WWWIII, complete with bio-weapons and Iranian whackjobs with nukes.

Bomb the sites, clamp down HARD economically and try to kill all their leadership. That’s the way to go.

Nothing like stupid historical analogies, well done. And Which people were those coming back and saying Hitler’s Germany was beautiful? Not politicians, and not most of the Western press corps. No one I can think of besides overt fascist sympathizers like Lindbergh and J.F.C. Fuller.

Who is saying the mullah’s Iran is beautiful other than some anti-semites? The Iranian people allegedly hate their government.

That’s my point. Headhunter believes otherwise.[/quote]

The 1930’s Germans were terrified of their government. Visitors to Germany did come back and say it was a nice country and the trains ran on time.

Visitors to Iran come back and say it is a nice country. The Iranian citizens are terrified of their government.

The press has widely reported both governments as repressive.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
People who visited Germany in the 1930’s would come back and talk about what a wonderful country it was and how nice the people were. The Nazis were just an aberration; ruling would mellow them.

What’s happening now in Iran is equivalent to the Nazi troops entering the Rhineland in 1935 — we better nip this shit in the bud and soon or we’ll have WWWIII, complete with bio-weapons and Iranian whackjobs with nukes.

Bomb the sites, clamp down HARD economically and try to kill all their leadership. That’s the way to go.

Nothing like stupid historical analogies, well done. And Which people were those coming back and saying Hitler’s Germany was beautiful? Not politicians, and not most of the Western press corps. No one I can think of besides overt fascist sympathizers like Lindbergh and J.F.C. Fuller.[/quote]

Tourists.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
People who visited Germany in the 1930’s would come back and talk about what a wonderful country it was and how nice the people were. The Nazis were just an aberration; ruling would mellow them.

What’s happening now in Iran is equivalent to the Nazi troops entering the Rhineland in 1935 — we better nip this shit in the bud and soon or we’ll have WWWIII, complete with bio-weapons and Iranian whackjobs with nukes.

Bomb the sites, clamp down HARD economically and try to kill all their leadership. That’s the way to go.

Nothing like stupid historical analogies, well done. And Which people were those coming back and saying Hitler’s Germany was beautiful? Not politicians, and not most of the Western press corps. No one I can think of besides overt fascist sympathizers like Lindbergh and J.F.C. Fuller.

Who is saying the mullah’s Iran is beautiful other than some anti-semites? The Iranian people allegedly hate their government.

[/quote]

Didn’t you read the post where the dude is going skiing in Iran? There are several posts here that describe the people as kind and gentle, blah, blah, blah.