i did my first boxing class today, working with an instructor, and initially i started with a southpaw stance because the hand positioning felt more natural to me, the instructor had me try orthodox since i am naturally right handed. He said my footwork as orthodox was much more natural and fluid, but that i punched like a girl when standing orthodox, and punched quite a bit harder when standing southpaw.
On the other hand when standing southpaw he said i just tend to kind of stand there, and when i do back up or dodge i’m almost tripping over my own feet. Which should i do? learn to punch orthodox stance, or work on my footwork in southpaw stance. Keep in mind i’m just a beginner and don’t really know what i’m talking about, i’m going on what the instructor was telling me. He wants me to switch to orthodox, but i’d prefer to stay southpaw.
I think too what might be screwing me up is i did alot of taekwondo as a kid, and in taekwondo there was alot of stance switching involved, after many kicks or punches were thrown you’d just sort of switch your stance back and forth as you threw roundhouse kicks or even some punches. although its been 15 years since I trained taekwondo this is about the only explanation i can think of.
I’m a natural righty, but in athletic endeavors - baseball, hockey, golf, pretty much anything where I have to hold anything - I’ve always been a lefty. Naturally that carried over the boxing.
I can punch with my right hand - fairly well too - but I can’t move at all because my feet can’t handle the orthodox stance. So I’m a southpaw.
Follow your feet. Footwork and stance is the most important thing in the sport, and if you start off backwards on those you’ll never go anywhere.
I think you could probably learn to do either. Since you ID’d as just starting out both are valid choices. However, I do think it is really, really important to either trust your coach or find one whom you will trust. You are ultimately counting on him to give you advice for dealing with folks who want to knock you out.
I would at least give it a few months of really trying before revisiting the issue. If you are having trouble generating power running down a copy of Jack Dempsey’s book(pre-dates US copyright law so downloading is legal) and practicing “drop step” and shoulder whirl/hip twist(can’t remember what he called it) in addition to your gym work might pay dividends.
I would also defer to donnydarko when discussing boxing. You are getting advice from a high level pro in his post. FighinIrish is also coming from a solid knowledge base about what has worked and continues to work for many, many guys starting out.
I agree, if your footwork is better right handed that’s the way to go. You’ll learn to generate power on your punches soon enough, but if your footwork isn’t there your punches won’t be effective with or without power.
“If your defense is shit, your offense is shit. And if your footwork is shit, everything is shit.” - Rob Kaman
Now… Pardon me for the delay; I only replied in passing before.
There are a few reasons behind my earlier reccomendation.
Rather than posting in my usual, rambling style, I will try and relate some of my own logic to your situation.
[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
i did my first boxing class today, working with an instructor, and initially i started with a southpaw stance because the hand positioning felt more natural to me, the instructor had me try orthodox since i am naturally right handed. He said my footwork as orthodox was much more natural and fluid, but that i punched like a girl when standing orthodox, and punched quite a bit harder when standing southpaw. [/quote]
It is natural to adopt the southpaw stance. Instinctively we lead with our dominant arm, looking to assert our strength.
This isn’t horrible when engaged in the here and now- but in terms of development, I have my issues on which I will elaborate later.
If you move better as an orthodox, I will assume you are right legged?
This means you generate power from your right leg thus moving more efficiently and more quickly.
Footwork. The difference between boxing and fighting is footwork and defense.
If you want to be a better boxer, adopt the stance with which you move more correctly. Your stance is your first form of defence. Your moevement your second.
Development.
So here’s the logic behind my faith in the “traditional” stances.
(My apologies, but prepare for a meandering flow of random experiences.)
(i)
When you begin boxing, the most important elements you must develop are the jab and your defense.
Should a right hander box southpaw he will immediatly have an advantage, he will jab hard- quickly.
However, I think you will find that such subjects will jab primarily from the shoulder, using the triceps to generate force.
Obviously this is down to the dominance of the right arm and the boxers confidence therin- but it is also down to the the rear leg not generating natural force.
So; where the jab may initially be a strength, in the long term the boxer is not developing ajab useful against more experienced opposition.
(ii)
A right handed boxer boxing southpaw, from my experience, has a tendancy to throw the jab “across the shoulder.” This means, noyt only are they restricting their reach, they are also squaring their body.
Boxing is all in how you look at things. if you look at thing from a traditional stance from behind your shoulder- you are a narrow shielded target- if you look from over yopur chest (as punching across the shoulder forces) you are a broad, open target;
Welcome to Uppercut city. Population; you…
(iii)
In the long term having your left hand to the fore forces you to use it more.
If you ask most experienced fighters what their most valuable asset is they usually answer their jab or their left hook.
Coincidence- hardly.
When the left hand is forced to work this much it becomes just as fast and hard as the right. The right is teh sledgehammer that can knock the door down- but the left is the key that can pick a lock without much energy expended.
If you are a right handed boxer boxing southpaw- it is my opinion that you will never develop the dexterity or speed in your left that you will boxing orthodox. As with all combat sports- developing your weaknesses is the key.
If you let your left sit at the rear shoulder and look for the straight or the uppercut occassionally it is very easy to become limited in your offense.
Thats my opinion and I am open to being corrected.
[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:
It is natural to adopt the southpaw stance. Instinctively we lead with our dominant arm, looking to assert our strength.
This isn’t horrible when engaged in the here and now- but in terms of development, I have my issues on which I will elaborate later.
[/quote]
Brotha, I gotta disagree with you here. In my experiences, people tend to lead with their weak hand in nearly all sports, and if they’re right-handed, odds are they’re going to bat-golf-box-shoot-etc. right handed as well.
I really have not seen what you’re talking about in action. Is this common in the gyms you go to?
Where have you seen this? I can’t understand why, if taught the proper mechanics, this would happen. It definitely hasn’t happened with me. Can you elaborate a bit more on why this occurs?
Again, I’m kinda surprised at this. If anything, we have to jab straighter because our opponent’s face is often right in front of (or trying to get on the other side of) our lead hand. Maybe I’m not understanding this right though. Again, can you elaborate more?
I highly disagree.Sure, there are those, like Oscar De La Hoya (a lefty who fights orthodox), who are only going to have a hook and a jab and no 2 to speak of, but I have very strong straight left and always have. It was actually the right hook that took me several years to develop, even though that’s my strong hand.
Now I may be sort of a weird case, because like I said, I do a lot of sports left-handed but am primarily a right-handed person - I can’t write, throw a baseball, or hold a gun with my left hand (I mean I can, but clear out the range.)
Generating power with my left leg back, however, has always been a talent of mine, and I find that if I adopt an orthodox stance, I literally cannot take a step without feeling like a newborn calf.
All I’m saying is that I wouldn’t generalize so broadly on this topic.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Brotha, I gotta disagree with you here. In my experiences, people tend to lead with their weak hand in nearly all sports, and if they’re right-handed, odds are they’re going to bat-golf-box-shoot-etc. right handed as well.
I really have not seen what you’re talking about in action. Is this common in the gyms you go to? [/quote]
From my experience as a boxer and more recently coaching- when you take a young athlete and ask them to take stance they will stand with their stronger hand to the front.
Yes they box right handed, but only having been corrected.
I wasn’t referring to any sport- I was referring to the stance naturally adopted.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Where have you seen this? I can’t understand why, if taught the proper mechanics, this would happen. It definitely hasn’t happened with me. Can you elaborate a bit more on why this occurs?
[/quote]
Where hasn’t it happened? This practie has become so prevalent it was raised by the AIBA as one of the reasons for returning to 10-9 scoring.
Boxing had become a scoring sport- with no meat behind many scoring shots.
It had become so problematic that some conscientious judges had began to disregard the jab as a scoring shot.
Even in professional boxing the jab has become secondary.
See HBO and Compubox; who’s scoring systems are partioned into jabs and power punches.
In days past the jab was an effective weapon, with the rear leg generating the force and the arm acting as needle to the syringe. In order to operate this to its maximum efficiency, you must use your dominant leg to explode from the floor when landing the punch.
Its not actually a theory of mine- but sage advice, that comes (second hand) from Futch.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Again, I’m kinda surprised at this. If anything, we have to jab straighter because our opponent’s face is often right in front of (or trying to get on the other side of) our lead hand. Maybe I’m not understanding this right though. Again, can you elaborate more?
There are many lefties that box orthodox- and quite a few righties that box southpaw.
Generally there is a reason.
I dont like to generalise. Particularly in our sport with so many variables and tangents.
But- I can’t think of any way better than developing a weak arm than forcing you to use it and saving your heavy artillery for secondary fire (and with maximum leverage at that.)
Your left leg would be responsible for generating force in your right (stronger) arm.
Can you say that boxing Southpaw lends towards developing punches from your left (weaker) arm?
[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:
From my experience as a boxer and more recently coaching- when you take a young athlete and ask them to take stance they will stand with their stronger hand to the front.
Yes they box right handed, but only having been corrected.
I wasn’t referring to any sport- I was referring to the stance naturally adopted.
[/quote]
Not doubting the veracity of the statement, but I’m still shocked. Really, boxing is no different than any other sport that requires that sort of stance, and correlates very closely with swinging a baseball bat.
I’ve seen the exact opposite. But maybe it’s just our experiences.
Right, but that’s a problem with ALL boxers, not just righties who fight southpaw. Maybe if your left leg is significantly weaker you can have this problem, but I never have.
And clearly the natural righties aren’t doing it either - so again, I believe that if you teach the mechanics correctly, this gets remedied.
Again, I agree with your breakdown of the mechanics. No problem there. And that absolutely happened to Hagler during fights.
But I’d be hard-pressed to believe that it happened because, after all of those years of fighting at the highest possible level, his left leg wasn’t strong enough. And I seriously wonder whether, if he had fought orthodox, he wouldn’t have gotten just as tired, especially at against Mugabi at a relatively late period in his career.
Also, Hagler was a dude that essentially like to mix it up, and I think that all of us who have that proclivity tend to square up, especially when we’re trailing/stalking someone.
After all, if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be doing the stalking.
[quote]
There are many lefties that box orthodox- and quite a few righties that box southpaw.
Generally there is a reason.
I dont like to generalise. Particularly in our sport with so many variables and tangents.
But- I can’t think of any way better than developing a weak arm than forcing you to use it and saving your heavy artillery for secondary fire (and with maximum leverage at that.)
Your left leg would be responsible for generating force in your right (stronger) arm.
Can you say that boxing Southpaw lends towards developing punches from your left (weaker) arm?[/quote]
No, I can’t, and I’m not making a broad argument in favor of turning an orthodox fighter around exactly for that reason.
But there’s another way to go with that - the lead arm never develops into something because it’s just weak, shitty (like my left would be if I was orthodox), and the mechanics don’t come together, so I get my ass whipped because I’ve got no jab. That’s happened too.
I don’t think I would have lasted long boxing if I’d had an old-school coach that tried to turn me orthodox. The movement patterns are so uncomfortable, and I’m just so ingrained as a southpaw in sports, that it could not have happened.
So while there may not be a lot of guys that it works for, the ones that it DOES work for, like Hagler or Chad Dawson, it’s hard to argue with.
I would just like to point out that no matter any discussion after their first answers both Irish and donnydarko suggested following your coach’s advice.
I have seen people show prefferences for both strong hand forward OR back prior to training.
Some will naturally put their power hand to the rear and throw bombs. Others put it out front.
I am not sure if prior athletics have anything to do with it, but I will point out that in the U.S. there is a good chance of a “throwing” sports background like baseball or football. I suspect soccor or rugby may not reinforce the same “prefferences”.
RE: Learning to fight strong side forward vs back
You really can do either. If the conversation switches to modern or Renaissance era fencing the blade is going to lead and you will hold it in your stong hand. In some styles you will have a short steel in your rearhand and it WILL turn into something.
If we are talking broad sword and shield the sword goes in the strong hand, and it stays back, but your lead WILL be active or you will be a target.
Kenjutsu/Iado-if you have a right arm, it is the primary. Left foot usually leads, but that is a bit more fluid.
Practicing any of these will still require footwork, angles, etc. None of this dictates what is best for boxing, but I doubt that it is ever a hard “can’t”.
As an aside I favor strong side forward just so I get a little better crossover/transfer of training between empty hands and when I have a knife. Of course I am an unskilled heathen.
I’ve always trained both stances equally since I’m ambidextrous… and I love the advantage changing a stance gives you in fighting or sparring. A buddy who I used to spar with hated sparring me because I was always switching stances and it frustrated him. But I kickbox, I imagine the dynamics might be different with just strict boxing.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
I’ve always trained both stances equally since I’m ambidextrous… and I love the advantage changing a stance gives you in fighting or sparring. A buddy who I used to spar with hated sparring me because I was always switching stances and it frustrated him. But I kickbox, I imagine the dynamics might be different with just strict boxing. [/quote]
Yea, they tend to be. It’s so specialized, and guys are so good with their hands, that if you’re not every bit as good from your left side as you are with your right, you’re gonna get killed when you switch.
Very few fighters switch consistently during bouts unless they’re on the inside and trying to get a little more leverage (Ricky Hatton and Micky Ward come to mind.)
robert - I do have a e-copy of Dempsey’s book so i’ll have to get to reading it! I’m only on page thirty or so. And you are right about fencing, i used to do some fencing so maybe that is why right hand forward is more natural to me.
Spent todays session in orthodox stance and my left arm is very weak, i could not keep it up defensively at all, although i was trying. Oddly enough my right leg got very tired very quick, and i ended up spending most of the session leaning forward on my left leg because of that.