T Nation

Should I Run an AI?

I’m on test-e 500/mg a week with 30/mg of DBOL right now.
I’ve been told i should run an AI. I do hold water but, I really dont mind it. I do get tight in my fingers and feet in the morning, but that goes away by the time i’m fully awake.
I’m currently at about 16% BF.

Check out the pic

Yes AI start it now.

You never run test AND especially dbol without one.

Its not just the water you have to worry about. Elevated E is a nightmare.

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I am on the same cycle and came down with a case of sensitive nipples by day 15. I had been using Adex at 0.25mg/d from day 3 of the cycle. It was not enough so on day 15 when I felt the sensitive nipples, I went up to 0.5mg/d. It took about 10 days to get back to normal.

I find dbol aromatises heavily.

I always have my nolva and adex on hand in case of crazy e levels.

Now in my last cycle, gyno didn’t appear at all. I don’t see why if i get water retention, i should take it.

My water retention is only slight.

[quote]Hussayn wrote:
I always have my nolva and adex on hand in case of crazy e levels.

Now in my last cycle, gyno didn’t appear at all. I don’t see why if i get water retention, i should take it.

My water retention is only slight.[/quote]

High E2 levels cause more problems than just gyno and water retention.

KSman has written a lot about it.

I really don’t see why someone wouldn’t use an AI at the minimum dose for health reasons alone, nevermind the effects on physical appearence.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Hussayn wrote:
I always have my nolva and adex on hand in case of crazy e levels.

Now in my last cycle, gyno didn’t appear at all. I don’t see why if i get water retention, i should take it.

My water retention is only slight.

High E2 levels cause more problems than just gyno and water retention.

KSman has written a lot about it.

I really don’t see why someone wouldn’t use an AI at the minimum dose for health reasons alone, nevermind the effects on physical appearence. [/quote]

I thought an AI was an optional thing to run when you’re not sensitive to your steroid dose. I always have the nolva and adex on hand though. I’ve started to dose today and will do it every 3rd day along with my injections.

If nothing else, there are estrogen metabolites (catechol estrogens) that are substantially carcinogenic. I don’t mean merely in the sense that for example saccharine is called carcinogenic, but as quite real causative factors.

Really, why run elevated estrogen when these days it is not necessary.

(Yes, I know that bb’ers running high estrogen levels in steroid cycles have not been dropping dead like flies from resulting estrogen-caused cancer, but still, why do it.)

It makes sense. I just hadn’t thought of it that way. I didn’t want to waste Arimidex when I thought i didn’t need it. But i will continue to dose the adex! Thanks

T–>E2 aromatization is always there. It limits the effects of T, even if you do not think that you have symptoms. If libido is off, that is E2.

Adex dose needs to change with the amount of T that you take.

If E2 gets too low, you also loose libido.

Some are Arimidex/anastrozole over-responders and need to take 1/8th - 1/4th of the expected dose.

If you do lab work, your target should be E2-22pg/ml.

Use adex through PCT and taper down to .5mg/week after PCT for a while to keep E2 pressures off of your HPTA.

By the way, this is an area in which I’m convinced I was wrong in the past.

With reference to younger guys and I’m counting early 30’s in that, I used to say that while the theory was great, in practice use of an aromatase inhibitor just wasn’t proving out as a performance enhancer.

Now it was right that there sure were a lot of cases of no discerned performance enhancement effect.

But the conclusion that there actually was no benefit I now think was almost certainly wrong. I just don’t see how free T can be improved as much as it is, which can be quite substantial, while maintaing optimal estradiol level, and there be no benefit from that.

Maybe not a benefit that the user picks up and is sure is the case, especially given that fundamentally he does not know what would have happened in the same time frame without the AI. It is only a guess at best.

I’m sure it’s right that for a younger guy the performance enhancement benefit is not massive, but saying there wasn’t any, I’m pretty sure I had to have been wrong in that. Not enough for the user to be certain anything was happening though, yes, but that does not mean nothing worthwhile.

Especially as most of the cases where steroid users, who can have a benefit while “off” but since it is so much less benefit than they are accustomed to while “on” that it may seem to them to be no benefit – again, inherently lacking the information of what would have happened without the AI and therefore unavoidably relying only on guesswork for the judgment.

That post from bill was just too much, i didn’t understand one thing haha

I understood it to be a coming together of two great minds on this forum - KSman & Bill Roberts. I think Bill is saying that he now agrees that keeping E2 at an optimal level (around 22pg/ml) is beneficial.

ok. Well i’m getting my levels checked this week!

On the other hand, can too much Arimidex (low E) cause you to have lack of apetite and feel ‘down’… This is the second night in a row where i dont feel well.

Definitely. Too much or too little brings on anxiety, depression, lack of libido, etc. You usually know if you are too low when your joints (like knees for example) start getting achy when they normally aren’t.

I think it’s harder to determine when E2 is a little too high. That is a level lower than telltale nipple sensitivity, but enough to throw you off.

KSman says to dose Adex for maximum brain clarity and maximum libido.

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
I understood it to be a coming together of two great minds on this forum - KSman & Bill Roberts. I think Bill is saying that he now agrees that keeping E2 at an optimal level (around 22pg/ml) is beneficial.[/quote]

Yes.

Actually my previous position wasn’t that it wasn’t best overall to keep the level low-normal, just that I believed that in practice using an aromatase inhibitor off-cycle was not a performance enhancer or mass-gainer for younger guys. But for the reasons in the above post, I now think that it almost surely has to be, though not a drastic one.

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
I understood it to be a coming together of two great minds on this forum - KSman & Bill Roberts. I think Bill is saying that he now agrees that keeping E2 at an optimal level (around 22pg/ml) is beneficial.[/quote]

my E2 was 28 last test…I seem to have no symtoms other then holding weight…would a drop to lower levels really make a difference.has somneone been 28 or so…then low 20’s and noticed a big difference,I stopped test,starting back up,this time I should include ANTI ?
THANKS GUYS

Fightu,

28 is not far off from ideal. Congratulations! Did you feel great at that level? How was your libido? How about clarity of mind?

I guess in practice everyone has their sweet spot. It seems you must have been in the zone. If starting another cycle the conventional wisdom is to use an AI and target the low 20s E2.

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
Fightu,

28 is not far off from ideal. Congratulations! Did you feel great at that level? How was your libido? How about clarity of mind?

I guess in practice everyone has their sweet spot. It seems you must have been in the zone. If starting another cycle the conventional wisdom is to use an AI and target the low 20s E2.[/quote]

see thats the thing I did not feel great ,after talking to Ksman,and reading all these posts…maybe im not in that spot…I do hold water…and have gained weight (not my goal),and libido,seem some go by ‘morning wood’ if thats a real indicator…some mornings yes,some no…so maybe lower for me would be better ?
and hope all goes well for you.and thanks for the reply.oh and yes clarity could prob be a lil better at times

It’s important to note that any individual test is just a snapshot of one moment in time.

In other words, a person whose level was most commonly around 20-24 pg/mL (as an example) if tested repeatedly might well have a given test show 28.

Another person whose level was commonly around 40 mg/mL also might well have a given test show 28.