That study is 13 years old and over a 15 year span. These were 65-69 year olds who averaged 503 (1988) to 423 (2003). Average levels have probably dropped 10% since the study.
I doubt the drop in testosterone is linear but it is not much of a stretch to think that if 65 year olds were in the 500s in 1988 that a 30 year old would probably have been well north of 1000 in 1900. That would put him well above 3x my tested levels of 273 and 235 at the age of 31.
Side note, it is theorized that ancient Greeks and Romans probably had T levels above 2000. With the nature of which they did things and the bodies seen in statues this is not hard to imagine.
I will add that the average of 300-1000 is dramatically weighted to the lower end of that spectrum.
You need to check test level charts as your doubling of a 30 year old male from 65 year old is not accurate. Also we are speaking averages here and again your level at 31 is far from average. You would be hypgonadal at those levels. You can’t compare your levels. I am on TRT as well and my levels are now 2-3x higher than they were. I have been training for almost 20 years. I did make some gains, about 10lbs, but having T levels near 1000 is not the same as steroids or Adonis giving levels.
Long post shortened, Sandow’s physique is not achievable naturally (today) and thus not a good measuring stick.
Any modern natty chart will tell you 200lbs at 12% or less BF is not achievable unless you are well over 6’. Sandow was 5’ 8".
and because I love this discussion…
Oops, mis remembered. Maybe the average wasn’t north of 1000 buuut see chart.
Agree, but I doubt 30 year old Sandow had T levels as low as 1000.
Are we counting that Sandow was adonis body or are we only talking about the magazine fake nattys?
I made a chart because that is what I do…
Sandow was probably a genetic outlier in an era with already much higher average levels than today. Aside from having a physique not matched in his time or in any time until steroids he also very quickly became the strongest man in the world compared to who was doing it before him and at the age of 22.
His physique also had a much “harder look” compared to when steroids are used which make the muscles look less dense and even puffy.
Here is a 10 year natty bodybuilder, looks better than sandow actually however i think this is mostly genetics, guy does look like he is on juice but claims natty i cant post links so just google: FIT_N_FLEXED reddit post: before and after 10 years natty
well after good thought i decided it would be dumb for me to take the steroids. thank you for the in depth responses.
to answer a couple of questions asked… i havent been able to properly identify my issues. the nhs here in the uk wont provide me with any help. they tell me not to lift weights and thats that. i can only guess i have a jumble fuck of scar tissue over my tendons that is catching up on surrounding tissue causing the nerve irritation and clicking, pain etc.
i cant afford any other proffesional help to try and get to the root of my problem so im stuck. i have tried stretching, eccentric exercises, fish oil… you name it.
i am not trying to make excuses but it is extremely demotivating to try and do anything in weightlifting when it involves pain. the best i can come up with is using ankle straps around my wrists on the cable machine to develop my upper body but the kind of contraction and use of the muscle you get feels very inferior compared to gripping a bar etc.
Great discussion. I am really starting to believe that the dropping T levels in men today are linked to the assumption that we are too exposed to esteogenic foods, plastics, hygiene products, etc. it is this estrogenic signaling that is keeping our T levels down.
Look at what happens when you give a hypogonadal man some Clomid; T levels easily triple.
I got off injected TRT to Clomid+Adex. This keeps my levels at 700-800 with E2 at 25. Natty levels at 268.
yep… its sickening what mass produced food etc is doing to us and the planet as a whole. Parasitic government leaders and money grabbing industry are all to blame.
well i havent got that most of that equipment avaliable to me for start. im starting back off with training heavy in what i can and staying high rep ranges in the pressing so it minimises the strain on my wrists.
despite the pain iam determined to become strong before my time here is up. its probably better to live with some pain and dysfunction to live a life of mediocrity for the sake of prolonging the longevity of my joints. i could be dead tomorrow.
Steroids don’t fix injuries. Problems that you are having might even get worse with the use of AAS. You need surgery, therapy, or something like that. If you haven’t made any progress naturally, you probably won’t make any with gear. You need to find something that effective for you to make progess. You didn’t really outline your diet or training. They are probably messed up if no progress is being made. Steroids are a beautiful thing, but they aren’t magic. They aren’t effective if you cant be effective with diet and training.
Other than the injury, how do you feel otherwise? Sex drive good? Sleep? Memory? Perhaps you should get some bloodwork done to see were your natural T levels are.
Who theorized this about the Romans and Greeks? At values of less than 300 you’d be diagnosed as hypogonadism by competent doctors and should take T in medicinal doses of you want optimal health.
I found an article months ago that I have since not been able to find. To me this seems highly plausible given the look of statues (considering the look with most likely minimal training or attention to diet) and the general aggressiveness of society.
And I am on TRT (since shortly after that test)…it made all the difference in the world (sleep, mood, energy, brain fog).
Every time somebody brings up that study I look for it but don’t find it. I always try finding it by googling but I think I actually found it by link from another article.
Not just plausible. Greek artists startet to idealize their statues’ proportions and muscle size about a generation after they mastered the realistic depiction of their models. Statues from the classical period do not depict how their models acually looked, and the vast majority of antique statues produces afterwards are just copies of works from this period.
There might be merit to the theory that ancient greeks, romans and their contemporaries had higher t levels, but their statues won’t really tell you anything about that,
