T Nation

Shorter Test Only

First and foremost, I expect to get ripped on alteast somewhat for this post, but that’s ok. Yes, I am young, and most of you guys are going to suggest I not do this and I do understand where you are coming from.

However, I feel as though I have a decent knowledge base of AAS, I understand the risk, and I accept them. As far as maximizing my natural gains…this doesn’t hold that true to me, as I’m not trying to reach my maximum size because I’m not looking to compete in bodybuilding.

I’m just a guy who loves to train hard and would like to reach a larger than normal size, AAS is just a boost to help me attain my current goals. I am 20 years old, 185lbs about 16% bodyfat (estimate as I do not have abs.) I recently used anavar for 5 weeks, did two weeks of nolva 30mg a day first week and 20 mg a day second week.

I noticed little to no suppression, however I used the nolva anyway. I did like the strength gains, however I gained just as much mass as I would have without it. I’d like to take a baby step towards better things.

I find that test is the cheapest and most effective, as well as the simplest. I really can’t see myself doing anything besides a test only cycle (now or ever). I’m going to use enanthate, however for a shorter period of time than most use it.

I’d like to use it in the 8-10 week range as opposed to 12 and beyond. I realize I will be suppressed either way, but I think recovery would be easier after 8 weeks as opposed to 12 because I won’t be suppressed for as long. I’d prefer a simple tried and true “basic” pct…2 weeks after last inject 40 40 20 20 nolva along with a good test booster.

Short Test Cycle:
Week 1 - 8 - 500mg testosterone enanthate (split up into 250mg Mon and Thurs)
PCT 2 weeks after last inject
Nolva - 40 40 20 20
Alpha Male

I know beforehand prop is going to be a suggestion, I just can’t see myself being able to inject ed or eod, as I’m looking for total simplicity. Any ideas. Thanks in advance.

I, for one, will support you and follow your progress. You should keep a log like mine, we can probably compare gains. You’re 185 @16%, I’m 175 & 10%… this could be interesting.

I’m doing pretty much same as you, except I’m probably going 10-12 weeks, and might use 600-750 mg per week…

But I totally feel you on the not reaching max potential part.

Your cycle looks good IMO, but I would suggest dropping your dose of nolva from 40/40/20/20, to 40/20/20/10.

I wouldn’t use prop either, for a first cycle the idea of pinning in general freaks me out… I wouldn’t use ED if my life depended on it, haha.

BTW… I was thinking enanthate is the esther of choice for a beginner… why would someone advise prop?

How tall are you?

ok, not to dispute any of the above posts but i feel i must clarify something.

Reaching your genetic potential as a natural bodybuilder is not the issue, it is reaching your potential as a progressive work.

Meaning; you know how to eat to gain weight without getting fat, you know how to train in the gym to gain maximum muscle or whatever your goals are; you know how to reach them without the use of exogenous hormones.

So this is not an attack on you Facko, but i think you would benefit from another year at least without steroids, especially considering your age and lean mass to bf%.

I know you have been around here for a while researching etc so you wont rush into anything, so best of luck what ever your decision.

I agree with Tbol, however if you do do this, i would like to say that you will get great gains from 8 weeks at 500mg. Promise. You could get more from 10weeks, but that will work at 8 too. 6 Howecver would be too short as i only see results at 5 weeks!

But i always assumed you were your avatar - Must say, i am deeply disappointed with the level of the people that post on this site regularly. Depressing. Anyone ever posted on ProMuscl? They are all 240lbs and <10%! It is more a hardcore site mind you.

Back to the OP - maybe you should wait. How long you been training serious, do you have a nutritional angle? how often do you train and do you miss workouts occasionally?

Joe

[quote]kayveeay wrote:
How tall are you?[/quote]

Around 5’9"

[quote] JJ wrote:
I agree with Tbol, however if you do do this, i would like to say that you will get great gains from 8 weeks at 500mg. Promise. You could get more from 10weeks, but that will work at 8 too. 6 Howecver would be too short as i only see results at 5 weeks!

But i always assumed you were your avatar - Must say, i am deeply disappointed with the level of the people that post on this site regularly. Depressing. Anyone ever posted on ProMuscl? They are all 240lbs and <10%! It is more a hardcore site mind you.

Back to the OP - maybe you should wait. How long you been training serious, do you have a nutritional angle? how often do you train and do you miss workouts occasionally?

Joe[/quote]

I trained very seriously for 2 years, I got to 190 and was looking solid, was at a level of leanness lower than I am now. I got into a car accident, no permanent damage however it did kill all my progress completely as I couldn’t train for months. I lost alot of mass, as well as strength. I’ve been training seriously again as of recent, and feel I am relatively close to where I was before. My lifts are decent except for my squat.

Bench - 245
Deadlift - 375
Squat - 275

I train mostly for strength right now, however they aren’t mutually exclusive and I have noticed size difference. I train 4 days a week, I never miss training. For the most part, I do almost no isolation movements, not even curls really. I stick to pull ups, bent over rows, deads, squats, bench, dips, dumbbell presses for shoulders. Calf raises are really the only muscle I hit alone as its a lagging body part.

My nutrition I feel is decent, however I do not get the amount of fruits and vegetables I need, I do cover my carbs and proteins. I’ve been more concerned with getting my size and strength back so I have eating alot. I prepare my meals for 3 days, ussually large amounts of rice, chicken and steak.

Supplements - Animal Pak, Biotest Grow! Whey, Biotest Surge, Creatine mono.

[quote]testanabol wrote:
ok, not to dispute any of the above posts but i feel i must clarify something.

Reaching your genetic potential as a natural bodybuilder is not the issue, it is reaching your potential as a progressive work.

Meaning; you know how to eat to gain weight without getting fat, you know how to train in the gym to gain maximum muscle or whatever your goals are; you know how to reach them without the use of exogenous hormones.

So this is not an attack on you Facko, but i think you would benefit from another year at least without steroids, especially considering your age and lean mass to bf%.

I know you have been around here for a while researching etc so you wont rush into anything, so best of luck what ever your decision.[/quote]

Thanks alot and I’m going to take all this into account. If I do decide on it, it won’t be for a bit since I really want to get a surplus of serms and maybe an AI before I do anything.

Ok mate - good stuff.

I would ALWAYS ALWAYS have an AI on hand BEFORE any cycle. ANY cycle except primo, anavar and Winstrol.

A necessity.

I think you have a nice cycle - you will get a few saying 10 weeks minimum, 600mg+ minimum, but i persoinally have seen fantastic results from 500mg a week for 7 weeks. The most growth is between weeks 5-8, so an 8 week is fine. as i mentioned above 10 is better, 8 is good.

You will need an AI, but you will suffer a low incidence of sides and no prolonged shutdown from that cycle. You could also run that exact cycle a good 5 times over the next 2 years and do very well, not bad for around $500 for the 5 cycles!

If you do a “low” dose of test (250-500mg) then i would say it is virtually mandatory that you use Proviron at 50mg a day thrughout, at least from weeks 4-8 i’d say. I get it real cheap usually, so i run it most of the cycle… dunno if this is more effective. It is still an androgen, so helps with libido still.

All in all i would say your cycle is good let me write it up with my points:

Wk1-8 Test Cyp/Enth 250mg 2xp/w
Wk1-8 Adex/Letro 0.25-0.5mg EOD-ED or as needed.
Wk4-8 Proviron 50mg p/d (this really is a must)
Wk 6-8 Halotestin…j/k!!!

JJ

[quote] JJ wrote:
Ok mate - good stuff.

I would ALWAYS ALWAYS have an AI on hand BEFORE any cycle. ANY cycle except primo, anavar and Winstrol.

A necessity.

I think you have a nice cycle - you will get a few saying 10 weeks minimum, 600mg+ minimum, but i persoinally have seen fantastic results from 500mg a week for 7 weeks. The most growth is between weeks 5-8, so an 8 week is fine. as i mentioned above 10 is better, 8 is good.

You will need an AI, but you will suffer a low incidence of sides and no prolonged shutdown from that cycle. You could also run that exact cycle a good 5 times over the next 2 years and do very well, not bad for around $500 for the 5 cycles!

If you do a “low” dose of test (250-500mg) then i would say it is virtually mandatory that you use Proviron at 50mg a day thrughout, at least from weeks 4-8 i’d say. I get it real cheap usually, so i run it most of the cycle… dunno if this is more effective. It is still an androgen, so helps with libido still.

All in all i would say your cycle is good let me write it up with my points:

Wk1-8 Test Cyp/Enth 250mg 2xp/w
Wk1-8 Adex/Letro 0.25-0.5mg EOD-ED or as needed.
Wk4-8 Proviron 50mg p/d (this really is a must)
Wk 6-8 Halotestin…j/k!!!

JJ[/quote]

Thanks alot JJ…if there is on thing I really have put little effort into knowing about…it would be proviron. I do know that guys use it like nolva or I may be wrong?

If I can’t get proviron…what about arimidex?

Proviron is actually a steroid. Mesterolone it is called. It is a form of DHT and is a pure androgen with virtually zero anabolic properties at all.

It helps in the estrogen battle as it works by either preventing or reducing (i personally think reducing) the activity of aromatase enzyme. This was useful when added to nolvaded or clomid as the two drugs worked in 2 different ways for the same goal. this combo was once the best and only way to reduce estrogenic sides at all!

Thank fuck for arimidex and letro. thank fuck the prices came down too… i couldnt use test for years for that reason.

anyway, back to the story - mesterolone being a steroid, it also has other properties. As an androgen, it can add nicely to an anabolic only cycle such as primo, winstrol even deca… as it seems to put in “the missing piece” - this isnt a documented use but one i have enjoyed none the less.

It also has a high ffinity for attracting sex hormone binding globulin SHBG, which is a hormone that binds to free testosterone in the body rendering it useless by the relevant receptors. This is in order to control fluctuations in the hormone that occur naturally.

When we inject test this happens - an WE DONT LIKE IT! Proviron nicely so, is a strong binder to SHBG, so if one takes this while using test the proviron will bind to much of the circulating SHBG leaving more of the injected Test free to work its magic.

All in all proviron is a shit-hot addition to most cycles, and as i have said before i never cycle without it. It is good with aromatizing drugs, anabolic only drugs, and the median too! It , in my experience has caused me little to zero acne, maybe a little oily skin, a little aggression and maybe a little hair loss… None of them by much and they could have been the sides from Deca.
During a test cycle with proviron i felt that i dont get much in the way of androgenic sides, no more than if i was on the test “clean”.

Masteron does the same as proviron but is much more anabolic (not very anabolic though apparently) but i cannot truly comment on that as i have no previous.
Winstrol binds to SHBG strongly too.

Educated my friend?

JJ

[quote]facko wrote:
If I can’t get proviron…what about arimidex?[/quote]

You misunderstand. proviron is not used as an anti estrogen anymore.

You always want to use arimidex if you are using an aromatizable compound.

The only time proviron would be suitable as an anti aromatase is when the drug in question is mild. Boldenone would be too mild to warrant adex, proviron would be ok. maybe a little nolva if needed.

But if stacked with test etc… adex or letrozole.

joe

[quote] JJ wrote:
Proviron is actually a steroid. Mesterolone it is called. It is a form of DHT and is a pure androgen with virtually zero anabolic properties at all.

It helps in the estrogen battle as it works by either preventing or reducing (i personally think reducing) the activity of aromatase enzyme. This was useful when added to nolvaded or clomid as the two drugs worked in 2 different ways for the same goal. this combo was once the best and only way to reduce estrogenic sides at all!

Thank fuck for arimidex and letro. thank fuck the prices came down too… i couldnt use test for years for that reason.

anyway, back to the story - mesterolone being a steroid, it also has other properties. As an androgen, it can add nicely to an anabolic only cycle such as primo, winstrol even deca… as it seems to put in “the missing piece” - this isnt a documented use but one i have enjoyed none the less.

It also has a high ffinity for attracting sex hormone binding globulin SHBG, which is a hormone that binds to free testosterone in the body rendering it useless by the relevant receptors. This is in order to control fluctuations in the hormone that occur naturally.

When we inject test this happens - an WE DONT LIKE IT! Proviron nicely so, is a strong binder to SHBG, so if one takes this while using test the proviron will bind to much of the circulating SHBG leaving more of the injected Test free to work its magic.

All in all proviron is a shit-hot addition to most cycles, and as i have said before i never cycle without it. It is good with aromatizing drugs, anabolic only drugs, and the median too! It , in my experience has caused me little to zero acne, maybe a little oily skin, a little aggression and maybe a little hair loss… None of them by much and they could have been the sides from Deca.
During a test cycle with proviron i felt that i dont get much in the way of androgenic sides, no more than if i was on the test “clean”.

Masteron does the same as proviron but is much more anabolic (not very anabolic though apparently) but i cannot truly comment on that as i have no previous.
Winstrol binds to SHBG strongly too.

Educated my friend?

JJ[/quote]

VERY…thanks alot JJ. It seems that proviron is pretty expensive… :(…I really might have to go with arimidex as I’m poor. lol…but after reading all that I’d really love to add proviron in there…

Didn’t see the above post before I posted this. I understand now…sorry bout that.

So you see that it isnt arimidex OR proviron?

It is ALWAYS adex, and then add proviron if you want/can etc… yeah?

Proviron is cheap. If you can find a human supplier as opposed to an electronic one, then it should be cheap, if you can find a powder source then it should be cheap, and if neither of those are available you can get as low as a buck a pill online. $20 for 20 25mg tabs is as high as you’ll need to go IME. thats 3 weeks, that should be enough for the SHBG benefits in an 8-10 week cycle and $40 will cover a 12 week cycle easily.

Joe

So you see that it isnt arimidex OR proviron?

It is ALWAYS adex, and then add proviron if you want/can etc… yeah?

Proviron is cheap. If you can find a human supplier as opposed to an electronic one, then it should be cheap, if you can find a powder source then it should be cheap, and if neither of those are available you can get as low as a buck a pill online. $20 for 20 25mg tabs is as high as you’ll need to go IME. thats 3 weeks, that should be enough for the SHBG benefits in an 8-10 week cycle and $40 will cover a 12 week cycle easily.

Joe

[quote] JJ wrote:
So you see that it isnt arimidex OR proviron?

It is ALWAYS adex, and then add proviron if you want/can etc… yeah?

Proviron is cheap. If you can find a human supplier as opposed to an electronic one, then it should be cheap, if you can find a powder source then it should be cheap, and if neither of those are available you can get as low as a buck a pill online. $20 for 20 25mg tabs is as high as you’ll need to go IME. thats 3 weeks, that should be enough for the SHBG benefits in an 8-10 week cycle and $40 will cover a 12 week cycle easily.

Joe[/quote]

I see now…yea I can get 20 25mg tabs for 20$. 25mg ED is sufficient? Because if thats the case, I think I’ll add it in there from week 4-8.

[quote]facko wrote:
JJ wrote:
So you see that it isnt arimidex OR proviron?

It is ALWAYS adex, and then add proviron if you want/can etc… yeah?

Proviron is cheap. If you can find a human supplier as opposed to an electronic one, then it should be cheap, if you can find a powder source then it should be cheap, and if neither of those are available you can get as low as a buck a pill online. $20 for 20 25mg tabs is as high as you’ll need to go IME. thats 3 weeks, that should be enough for the SHBG benefits in an 8-10 week cycle and $40 will cover a 12 week cycle easily.

Joe

I see now…yea I can get 20 25mg tabs for 20$. 25mg ED is sufficient? Because if thats the case, I think I’ll add it in there from week 4-8.
[/quote]

My mistake! No 50mg daily. Sorry fella. It is used towards the end, and some is definitely better than none.
It is very underused but IME it improves all cycles. Kills deca dick dead in its tracks too!

[quote] JJ wrote:
facko wrote:
JJ wrote:
So you see that it isnt arimidex OR proviron?

It is ALWAYS adex, and then add proviron if you want/can etc… yeah?

Proviron is cheap. If you can find a human supplier as opposed to an electronic one, then it should be cheap, if you can find a powder source then it should be cheap, and if neither of those are available you can get as low as a buck a pill online. $20 for 20 25mg tabs is as high as you’ll need to go IME. thats 3 weeks, that should be enough for the SHBG benefits in an 8-10 week cycle and $40 will cover a 12 week cycle easily.

Joe

I see now…yea I can get 20 25mg tabs for 20$. 25mg ED is sufficient? Because if thats the case, I think I’ll add it in there from week 4-8.

My mistake! No 50mg daily. Sorry fella. It is used towards the end, and some is definitely better than none.
It is very underused but IME it improves all cycles. Kills deca dick dead in its tracks too![/quote]

Well…if I can get ahold of it…I definately will add this. Thanks for the advice.

0.5mg a day of arimidex is good right?