Shogun = Best LHW in the World

Off Topic
21

[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
Naphta wrote:

Was bout to say that Chuck did indeed fight Overeem and beat him. However, he wasn’t doing great in that fight up until his knockout.

Ah yes. The ever popular ‘Alistair was tooling him … until he got knocked unconscious’ argument.

Overeem tools EVERYONE, including Shogun, in the opening minutes of his fights. He is a notoriously fast starter who gasses at about the three minute mark of every fight he has ever been in. When he faces truly great fighters (like Chuck and Shogun), they simply weather the storm and then beat the snot out of him in the fourth minute of the fight.

You would think someone would have a talk with Alistair about conserving his energy rather than going balls-out from the moment the bell rings. Yet he has been making the same mistake his entire career.[/quote]

I’m giving you an internet hug. Everytime some says Alistair was “BEATING THE SHIT” out of Chuck I want to puke. That’s like saying someone looked good against Big Nog.

22

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Speaking of heavyweights cutting to 205… Crocop could sure as hell do it too.

Why not a Crocop vs. Lidell matchup in the ufc? I’d pay to see that.[/quote]

Cro Cop wouldn’t cut. Chuck would have to come up. Mirko is a lean 225, Chuck walks into the ring at 220. Cro Cop has nothing to prove by going down.

I imagine this will be Chuck’s retirement fight if I look into my crystal ball. Another year or so and Chuck is looking at the end of his career, a superfight between the two most sucessful MMA strikers would be a great send off for him, whether he wins or loses.

23

[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
nickels wrote:
it’s just another indicator of the level of 205ers in Pride versus the UFC.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t Chuck have four knockouts against Tito Ortiz and Renato Sobral? I’m pretty sure that those two guys put a beating on Wandy & Shogun respectively. I’m no fan of MMA math, but it’s hard to believe in the vast superiority of Pride 205ers when their two best fighters got tooled by a couple of Chuck’s victims.

Don’t get me wrong. I think Pride does have the better fighters, but the difference is nowhere near the monumental chasm that some folks seem to believe it is.

The UFC’s 205 division is simply undervalued because we have seen them all get demolished by Chuck, whereas the Pride guys have all avoided getting wrecked. When a top Pride 205er has lost, it has almost always been to a decision rather than a brutal stoppage (the lone exception being Arona’s defeats at the hands of Shogun & Rampage).[/quote]

Tito hasn’t had a reputation since 1999. He hasn’t beaten anyone of you can call today great, except Silva, and that was a long time ago.

I do not think the UFC’s LHW division has been undervalued. It is what it is. Chuck and two very good grapplers(Ortiz and Sobral) who do not have the style to beat Chuck(prior to Rampage joining).

Silva has had a tough time against big strong wrestlers, Ortiz and Arona. Sometimes regardless how good fighters are they sometimes run into bad match-ups.

Also when Sobral beat Shogun, Shogun was extremely young and had yet to accomplish much in his career.

I do think Shogun needs to improve his stand-up. Silva too. Though those two still are better on their feet than both Ortiz and Sobral.

If this was boxing I might be inclined to accept the who beat who argument, since in boxing there are less variables to deal with. MMA has shown you can’t really prove much that way though.
Pride has problems with teammates not facing each other and non-title fights.

I agree that the gap between the two isn’t large at LHW. Pride has a slight edge in depth, that’s it.

As for Overeem, he must be the most talented unsuccessful guy in a major org. On paper I think he is more skilled and talented than: Liddell, Jardine, Forrest and Lil Nog. Though that hassn’t translated into success. Wait maybe Aleks(Fedor’s brother) can qualify for this title now.

24

reading this thread just made me start thinking about how chuck was ran over by rampage & rampage was run over by shogun & silva (although in one w/ silva he did do pretty good for a while).

I think the biggest thing is the clinch game was one of rampages weak points and a very strong point of the chute boxe team. Also silva & shogun are very aggressive whereas chuck is a counterfighter. not to mention the clinch is one of the weaker points in chuck’s game… look at his 1st fight w/ randy & his fight w/ mezger.

just food for thought. I like to analyze fights. thoughts?

25

[quote]Jesse22 wrote:
reading this thread just made me start thinking about how chuck was ran over by rampage & rampage was run over by shogun & silva (although in one w/ silva he did do pretty good for a while).

I think the biggest thing is the clinch game was one of rampages weak points and a very strong point of the chute boxe team. Also silva & shogun are very aggressive whereas chuck is a counterfighter. not to mention the clinch is one of the weaker points in chuck’s game… look at his 1st fight w/ randy & his fight w/ mezger.

just food for thought. I like to analyze fights. thoughts?[/quote]

Overagressive fighters are where Chuck makes his money. Coming in throwing wild like Wanderlei used to would play right into Chuck’s game.

I don’t know if Wanderlei or Shogun would be strong enough to hold the clinch against Chuck, he is deceptively strong even though he looks like just another dude with a beer gut. Just my opinion.

Why is it that everyone brings up the clinch after the Anderson Silva-Franklin fight? I don’t think I’ve heard so much about the clinch before.

26

[quote]slimjim wrote:

Why is it that everyone brings up the clinch after the Anderson Silva-Franklin fight? I don’t think I’ve heard so much about the clinch before.[/quote]

I dunno. We used to hear about it a lot in relation to Couture and his ‘dirty boxing’ and greco-takedown game. It just fell out of favor for a while as the UFC was being dominated by guys who prefer to do their striking at a distance (Franklin, Liddell, Sylvia, AA).

Whenever a new fighter comes onto the scene who truly excels in one area, it gets talked about. Anderson Silva’s clinch game is something that UFC fans have never really seen before. Obviously, Pride fans have been watching the Chute Boxe guys and Alistair Overeem destroy people with knees from the clinch for years, but it seems ‘new’ to fans who only follow the UFC.