T Nation

Shogun = Best LHW in the World

Who’s your pick for the best 205lber in the world?

My vote goes to Shogun… here’s some food for thought.

Shogun’s good, here’s some more footage

Grand Theft Title:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugOH5eCtzPw

Shogun is pretty good. He needs to work on his stand up, that is for sure. He’s the best all around 205lb fighter on the ground though, without a doubt.

I like Shogun, but in my ranking scheme he’s #2 to Chuck until someone exposes a gap in Chuck’s game.

He is next to impossible to take down right now, maybe Rashad can do it, I’d like to find out if he can. Chuck’s striking isn’t great from a technical standpoint, but that right hand of his is an outright bomb and his chin is pretty damn good even if his defense leaves him open to take a few shots. Everybody will probably jump to Rampage, but I don’t think Rampage can repeat what he did to Chuck in 2003. I really hope we get to see some cross-promotion bouts to solidify this debate.

I don’t even know where to put Hendo given his recent victory over Wanderlei contrasting with his disappointing defeat to Misaki…at this point, we can’t really tell who is better until they fight.

This is coming from one of the few people that hopes Chuck is going to lose in every fight he’s in…except maybe his first Pride bout against Metzger

[quote]slimjim wrote:
I like Shogun, but in my ranking scheme he’s #2 to Chuck until someone exposes a gap in Chuck’s game.

He is next to impossible to take down right now, maybe Rashad can do it, I’d like to find out if he can. Chuck’s striking isn’t great from a technical standpoint, but that right hand of his is an outright bomb and his chin is pretty damn good even if his defense leaves him open to take a few shots. Everybody will probably jump to Rampage, but I don’t think Rampage can repeat what he did to Chuck in 2003. I really hope we get to see some cross-promotion bouts to solidify this debate.

I don’t even know where to put Hendo given his recent victory over Wanderlei contrasting with his disappointing defeat to Misaki…at this point, we can’t really tell who is better until they fight.

This is coming from one of the few people that hopes Chuck is going to lose in every fight he’s in…except maybe his first Pride bout against Metzger[/quote]

I give it to Shogun b/c the only fighter I remember who’s been able to beat him is Mark Coleman, and that’s probably more due to a serious size discrepancy than anything else. Shogun’s beaten some of the biggest names in the sport. Chuck hasn’t. Chuck’s beaten up on the ufc 205s all right, but he’s never faced down guys like Nog, Arona, or Overeem. Personally, I think Nog and Overeem would beat Chuck. In fact, historically Chuck has almost as many losses as wins over the real tough guys. Couture, Jackson, and Horn all beat him. Shogun, on the other hand, would make minced meat out of all of those three. And Shogun’s still young and improving rapidly.

You’re right, though. We’ll never know for sure until these organizations can start cooperating.

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
slimjim wrote:

I give it to Shogun b/c the only fighter I remember who’s been able to beat him is Mark Coleman, and that’s probably more due to a serious size discrepancy than anything else. Shogun’s beaten some of the biggest names in the sport. Chuck hasn’t. Chuck’s beaten up on the ufc 205s all right, but he’s never faced down guys like Nog, Arona, or Overeem. Personally, I think Nog and Overeem would beat Chuck. In fact, historically Chuck has almost as many losses as wins over the real tough guys. Couture, Jackson, and Horn all beat him. Shogun, on the other hand, would make minced meat out of all of those three. And Shogun’s still young and improving rapidly.

You’re right, though. We’ll never know for sure until these organizations can start cooperating.[/quote]

A. He lost to Coleman because his arm broke, and not from a Coleman armbar.

B. He did fight Overeem.

[quote]nickels wrote:
Professor Chaos wrote:
slimjim wrote:

I give it to Shogun b/c the only fighter I remember who’s been able to beat him is Mark Coleman, and that’s probably more due to a serious size discrepancy than anything else. Shogun’s beaten some of the biggest names in the sport. Chuck hasn’t. Chuck’s beaten up on the ufc 205s all right, but he’s never faced down guys like Nog, Arona, or Overeem. Personally, I think Nog and Overeem would beat Chuck. In fact, historically Chuck has almost as many losses as wins over the real tough guys. Couture, Jackson, and Horn all beat him. Shogun, on the other hand, would make minced meat out of all of those three. And Shogun’s still young and improving rapidly.

You’re right, though. We’ll never know for sure until these organizations can start cooperating.

A. He lost to Coleman because his arm broke, and not from a Coleman armbar.

B. He did fight Overeem.[/quote]

Was bout to say that Chuck did indeed fight Overeem and beat him. However, he wasn’t doing great in that fight up until his knockout.

I’m not saying this is indicative of how he would do, especially because Chuck’s game has become perfected now.

I do think Shogun could beat Lidell, if only because of the pace Shogun would be able to push Lidell towards.

I also would like to see an Arona/ Lidell fight.

[quote]Naphta wrote:
nickels wrote:
Professor Chaos wrote:
slimjim wrote:

I give it to Shogun b/c the only fighter I remember who’s been able to beat him is Mark Coleman, and that’s probably more due to a serious size discrepancy than anything else. Shogun’s beaten some of the biggest names in the sport. Chuck hasn’t. Chuck’s beaten up on the ufc 205s all right, but he’s never faced down guys like Nog, Arona, or Overeem. Personally, I think Nog and Overeem would beat Chuck. In fact, historically Chuck has almost as many losses as wins over the real tough guys. Couture, Jackson, and Horn all beat him. Shogun, on the other hand, would make minced meat out of all of those three. And Shogun’s still young and improving rapidly.

You’re right, though. We’ll never know for sure until these organizations can start cooperating.

A. He lost to Coleman because his arm broke, and not from a Coleman armbar.

B. He did fight Overeem.

Was bout to say that Chuck did indeed fight Overeem and beat him. However, he wasn’t doing great in that fight up until his knockout.

I’m not saying this is indicative of how he would do, especially because Chuck’s game has become perfected now.

I do think Shogun could beat Lidell, if only because of the pace Shogun would be able to push Lidell towards.

I also would like to see an Arona/ Lidell fight.

[/quote]

I think Chuck didn’t know how to deal with Overeem’s reach. Also, it’s just another indicator of the level of 205ers in Pride versus the UFC.

In addition to that, Shogun’s good out of the gate, and I think that would help him against Chuck, as you said, because Chuck wouldn’t have a chance to dictate the pace like he normally seems to do…

I would have to rank Chuck the number one LHW for recent accomplishment. Taking into Shogun’s and Chuck’s competition in 2006 I think Chuck gets the nod. Rank for me has nothing to do with talent or who would beat who hypothetically.
I still think Rampage is a bad match-up for Chuck.

I think Shogun has to improve his stand-up. Overeem and Diabate gave Shogun trouble. Though Overeem and Diabate have very good stand-up from a technical stand point(better than Chuck’s).
I think Dan’s loss to Misaki is just one of those bad match-ups.

MIsaki had a great plan for Dan and executed it. I think Dan would win the rubber match between the two, just take Misaki down. Dan beat Silva who is a top 3~5 LHW. I just give Dan, Silva’s spot. Just like I give Diaz the number one spot for beating Gomi(even if I don’t like it). It is my policy so I will stick with it.

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:

I give it to Shogun b/c the only fighter I remember who’s been able to beat him is Mark Coleman[/quote]

LUCY!!! You’ve got some splaining to do. – Babalu

[quote]Naphta wrote:

Was bout to say that Chuck did indeed fight Overeem and beat him. However, he wasn’t doing great in that fight up until his knockout.[/quote]

Ah yes. The ever popular ‘Alistair was tooling him … until he got knocked unconscious’ argument.

Overeem tools EVERYONE, including Shogun, in the opening minutes of his fights. He is a notoriously fast starter who gasses at about the three minute mark of every fight he has ever been in. When he faces truly great fighters (like Chuck and Shogun), they simply weather the storm and then beat the snot out of him in the fourth minute of the fight.

You would think someone would have a talk with Alistair about conserving his energy rather than going balls-out from the moment the bell rings. Yet he has been making the same mistake his entire career.

[quote]nickels wrote:
it’s just another indicator of the level of 205ers in Pride versus the UFC.
[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t Chuck have four knockouts against Tito Ortiz and Renato Sobral? I’m pretty sure that those two guys put a beating on Wandy & Shogun respectively. I’m no fan of MMA math, but it’s hard to believe in the vast superiority of Pride 205ers when their two best fighters got tooled by a couple of Chuck’s victims.

Don’t get me wrong. I think Pride does have the better fighters, but the difference is nowhere near the monumental chasm that some folks seem to believe it is.

The UFC’s 205 division is simply undervalued because we have seen them all get demolished by Chuck, whereas the Pride guys have all avoided getting wrecked. When a top Pride 205er has lost, it has almost always been to a decision rather than a brutal stoppage (the lone exception being Arona’s defeats at the hands of Shogun & Rampage).

[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
nickels wrote:
it’s just another indicator of the level of 205ers in Pride versus the UFC.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t Chuck have four knockouts against Tito Ortiz and Renato Sobral? I’m pretty sure that those two guys put a beating on Wandy & Shogun respectively. I’m no fan of MMA math, but it’s hard to believe in the vast superiority of Pride 205ers when their two best fighters got tooled by a couple of Chuck’s victims.

Don’t get me wrong. I think Pride does have the better fighters, but the difference is nowhere near the monumental chasm that some folks seem to believe it is.

The UFC’s 205 division is simply undervalued because we have seen them all get demolished by Chuck, whereas the Pride guys have all avoided getting wrecked. When a top Pride 205er has lost, it has almost always been to a decision rather than a brutal stoppage (the lone exception being Arona’s defeats at the hands of Shogun & Rampage).[/quote]

Obligatory MMAth counter:

Wanderlei KO’ed Rampage quite badly twice, and Shogun TKO’ed Rampage handily as well. Rampage, in turn, beat Chuck decisively.

How about Chuck<Randy<Valentijn<Magomedov<Crocop<Randleman<Fedor<TK<Babalu<Hendo<Wanderlei<Tito<Chuck?

How’s that for a mind-bender? You can go on and on with sherdog’s fight finder and some free time.

It just doesn’t work that way, you can only sort things out for certain when they fight. The way it looks at the moment, I think Pride has the slight edge over the UFC in depth, though how long that will last with Pride’s money problems is anyone’s guess.

It’s really hard to say because in MMA styles really do make fights.

I think chuck would beat shogun, basically because i doubt he’d get him down for long and eventually Chuck would land the bomb that puts his lights out.

However, Shogun has imo fought and beaten better competition recently. He totally destroyed Arona, Overeem and Rampage as well as beating Nog and Nakumura for example. Chuck struggled against Overeem and was beaten by Rampage and in fairness hasn’t faced a stiff test lately.

It’s a tough one but technically Shogun should be number 1 but i’d still bet on Liddell if they fought.

[quote]booger wrote:
The way it looks at the moment, I think Pride has the slight edge over the UFC in depth[/quote]

That is all I was trying to say.

Some folks build up Pride’s Brazilian middleweights (Wand, Shogun, lil Nog, Arona) as if they are on a completely different plane than the guys in the UFC’s 205 pound division. They aren’t. I believe that they are slightly better as a group than the UFC’s top four guys, but I don’t think they are on a whole different level.

The big difference between the Pride 205 guys and the UFC 205 guys is that Pride does not have a bonafide king who is wrecking everyone else in the division. Wandy & Shogun won’t fight, Arona & lil Nog won’t fight, and for some reason Sakakibara refuses to allow Wandy & lil Nog to fight. Meanwhile, if you listen to the chatter on the internet, Chuck has absolutely destroyed the reputations of guys like Ortiz, Couture, and Sobral.

Fans tend to have a visceral reaction to seeing a challenger get KTFO and write that guy off as a pretender. That does not occur when the champ ekes out a decision (Wand v Arona) or doesn’t have to fight his #1 contender because he is one of his teammates.

Shogun vs Chuck

I think the winner depends on which org the match is under…at least for now.

UFC: No stomps, a fence(which is Chuck’s friend)

Pride: Stomps, no fence, restarts in the center, 10 min first round. (All bad for Chuck)

I think in 1-2 more years 205 will belong to Shogun for a long time.

Topic hijack:

Anderson Silva vs Chuck…I realize they are a different weight class, but Silva is just another level standing. I think he has a chance.

[quote]ArcaneCocaine wrote:
Shogun vs Chuck

I think the winner depends on which org the match is under…at least for now.

UFC: No stomps, a fence(which is Chuck’s friend)

Pride: Stomps, no fence, restarts in the center, 10 min first round. (All bad for Chuck)

I think in 1-2 more years 205 will belong to Shogun for a long time.

Topic hijack:

Anderson Silva vs Chuck…I realize they are a different weight class, but Silva is just another level standing. I think he has a chance.

[/quote]

Don’t believe the hype! He’s good but not THAT good.

This is a tough one to call. Mostly because I am mesmerized by Adam C’s Icon and can’t think straight.

Granted Rampage did beat Chuck but that was several years ago and I don’t remember it being some horrendous beating. may have been, again still looking at the icon

Shogun is great… but I don’t really see anything that definitively separates any of these three as the best. I do have very high hopes for Michael Bisping.

On the same note i think Fedor could easily drop 25 lbs to make light heavy in which case they are all screwed.

[quote]ScrambyEggs wrote:
I do have very high hopes for Michael Bisping.[/quote]

He’s fun to watch, but he’s a LONG way from being ready for the big boys. His wrestling is horrible, and as a result his sprawl is pathetic and his ability to get back up after a takedown is also very suspect. That said, his combination of crisp technical striking and solid BJJ skills should be enough to carry him until his wrestling skills are brought up to par.

However, even with an improved wrestling game, I still have my doubts he can be a champion at 205 pounds simply because he looks tiny when compared to the weight-cutting beasts that roam the LHW scene. I think Bisping would be best served to pull a Rich Franklin and cut down to 185 where he won’t be facing guys who can physically manhandle him.

Speaking of heavyweights cutting to 205… Crocop could sure as hell do it too.

Why not a Crocop vs. Lidell matchup in the ufc? I’d pay to see that.