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Sheiko Type Program Questions


#1

Ive been doing westside for a while now, and am loving it. But i'd been wanting to go higher frequency for a while now. I started looking around and came across sheiko. I know a lot of people are big on sheiko, so I was hoping you guys could answer some questions.

I found that sheiko #29 is the recommended starting program, but I also found this one on elitefts:

Week 1

Day one (Monday)

  1. Box squat, 6 X 2, add 10 kg and do 5 X 4
  2. Bench press (close grip with index fingers on the smooth part), 5 X 2, add 10 kg and do 5 X 5
  3. Dumbbell flies, 10 X 5
  4. Dips, 8 X 6
  5. Good mornings (standing), 5 X 5

Day three (Wednesday)

  1. Incline bench press, 4 X 2, add 5 kg and do 4 X 4
  2. Push-ups (hands wider than shoulders), 8 X 6
  3. Deadlift from pins (set pins 1â??2 inches above the knee), 5 X 2, add 10 kg and do 5 X 2, add 15 kg and do 4 X 4
  4. Lunges, 5 X 5 on each leg
  5. Hanging leg raises, 10 X 4

Day 5 (Friday)

  1. Box squat, 6 X 1, add 10 kg and do 5 X 2, add 15 kg and do 5 X 4
  2. Seated barbell press (behind the neck), 5 X 5
  3. Bench press (close grip), 6 X 1, add 10 kg and do 6 X 2, add 15 kg and do 5 X 4
  4. Dumbbell flies, 10 X 5
  5. Squat (no box), 5 X 1, add 10 kg and do 5 X 5
  6. Seated good mornings, 5 X 5

Thats just week one of the program.

So ive read up on sheiko a bit, and it seems to me that the main importance is the "meet" lifts. M=squat, press W=dead, press, F=squat, press.

1)So if you follow this split for the "meet" lifts, can you get away with changing the accessory lifts a bit?

2)Like instead of DB flies, can I do some for of shoulder raise, and instead of dips, can I do skull crushers or decline bench?

3)On all of this sheiko stuff, the sets/reps are backwards right? So if is says 10x4 thats actually 4 sets of 10?

4)Sheiko #29 uses a lot of percentages, where this program does not. Does anyone have any experience with not using percentages? The reason im leaning toward this plan, is I think i'll be more likely to stick with it if I dont have to do all sorts of percentages.

5)Is there any way of adding any of the following: Row, face pull, DB clean, pullup, calves?

6)Do people usually just do 3 training days a week, and completely OFF on the other days?

Thats about all of my questions for now. Im hoping to do the above program with a few adjustments, otherwise I can think of ways to make westside work with a higher frequency.

Thx guys.


#2

[quote]dankid wrote:
1)So if you follow this split for the “meet” lifts, can you get away with changing the accessory lifts a bit? Like instead of DB flies, can I do some for of shoulder raise, and instead of dips, can I do skull crushers or decline bench?[/quote]

you can, but the reason for the ones listed is that they are supporting the meet lifts.

yes

when i ran #29 i did it as written with percentages. it’s really not much work to figure them out, and i found it helped push me if i was trying to slack off by giving me a goal to hit.

some people will run shieko with a forth day of gpp work or unrelated accessory work. if they do sheiko mwf, then on saturday they do rows, shoulder stability work, etc. but not too much. you don’t want to overwork that and not hit your big lifts because of it.

see above. some do take 4 days off a week. during the first week of #29 i could barely move the 4 days i wasn’t in the gym. the last thing i wanted to do was lift more.


#3

Thx for the responses wolf, very helpful.


#4

So ive read up on sheiko a bit, and it seems to me that the main importance is the “meet” lifts. M=squat, press W=dead, press, F=squat, press.

You go heavier in that pattern, but all lifts or a variation therof are done each day. (for example, good mornings or lunges instead of deadlifts or squats.)

1)So if you follow this split for the “meet” lifts, can you get away with changing the accessory lifts a bit?

2)Like instead of DB flies, can I do some for of shoulder raise, and instead of dips, can I do skull crushers or decline bench?

the flies are there to stretch the pec and prevent injury. if you’re going to replace accessory lifts, at least aim for the same part of the lift they aim to assist, like switching dips for skullcrushers to lockout bench.

3)On all of this sheiko stuff, the sets/reps are backwards right? So if is says 10x4 thats actually 4 sets of 10?

if in doubt, it’s low reps, high sets.

4)Sheiko #29 uses a lot of percentages, where this program does not. Does anyone have any experience with not using percentages? The reason im leaning toward this plan, is I think i’ll be more likely to stick with it if I dont have to do all sorts of percentages.

here’s an excel spreadsheet that will calculate for you: http://rapidshare.com/files/140132973/Sheiko_Spreadsheet_2008.08.25.xls.html

5)Is there any way of adding any of the following: Row, face pull, DB clean, pullup, calves?

i did chinups on monday, pullups on wednesday, and kroc rows on friday.

6)Do people usually just do 3 training days a week, and completely OFF on the other days?

i tried a fourth day, i like the recovery more. but cardio and stretching sure helps worlds.

Thx guys.[/quote]


#5

not sure what’s up with my formatting, hopefully thats clear enough, im not up to retyping it.


#6

Here’s what I’ve gathered from doing sheiko for about 3 years.

I think a lot of people over-complicate the basic philosophy of the routine.

If you noticed, Sheiko and 5/3/1 are not too dissimilar. The bottom line is that basic movements work.

I took a look at EFS’s version of sheiko and wasn’t a fan. That’s not to say it doesn’t work, but I appreciate the simplicity of the original. I never do box squats anymore or anything of that nature. Once I stopped doing those movements, my lifts went up.

I use a super modified Wade Hooper sheiko routine. Yes, its really his routine (training for 06’ finals) and it seems to work. I took out the stupid mirrored bench pyramid on the 2nd day and replaced it with military press and threw in some strongman stuff (mainly farmers).

The entire prinicple behind sheiko is to make it work for you. If you think you need to change something, do it. Just make sure you justify it (this applies to ANY routine, right? RIGHT!)

I train 4 days a week:

Saturday: Heavy squat & accessory movements
Sunday: Heavy CG Bench & accessory movements
Tuesday: Heavy Deadlift and Military press & accessory movements
Thursday: Heavy Bench and modified squat movement & accessory movements.

Sunday and Saturday were one day, but it took too long and i split it up into two consecutive days focusing on the movements.

Don’t be scared to change up the routine and remember that accessory movements are there to help you and just because they are prescribed doesn’t mean they will work.

Listen to the podcast sheiko discussions with wade hooper. These things are absolute gold in terms of knowledge. I would even bother with sheiko until I did some more investigating. I’m just glad I beat the fad, lol.

www.purepowerlifting.com => that’s where you’ll find the podcasts.


#7

I would only add that I don’t think Sheiko would be a big fan of box squatting twice a week as in the program you posted. If you want to try out a coach’s philosophy, my suggestion would be to do it as indicated (like on 29) for a month or two and then tweak it, don’t tweak it right off the bat. The percentages are pretty easy to do either with a spreadsheet or just because they repeat all the time (once you know what 80% is for example it just keeps coming up).

In regards to your other questions, you can add in one extra day of lighter, lower volume stuff. I would usually do back/bis on that day for 30 min or something, calves can go anywhere on the program.

And yes you can modify the suggested assistance exercises to work on things you think you need to work on. As a side note a lot of translated programs have the lifter doing DB Flyes all of the time but personally I think Sheiko is suggesting a neutral grip DB Press performed with a similar pressing motion to a bench press (arch the DB back over face). Good luck with it, hope you enjoy it.


#8

Thx for the reply synthetic, i’ll start listening to those podcasts.

Im gonna do a deload for the next 5-7 days before I begin things. I was originally thinking of doing #29 or the EliteFTS program by the book, but 4 day split you outlined looks pretty nice. I’ll check out your logs as well, and throw up a new log when I begin.

There are a few things, like rows, facepulls, floor press, and RDL’s I dont think I can do without, so i’ll find a way to work these in, but I may do it more standard for the first month or so to get my feet wet.

Also, another question that I had, how can this program be modified for bulking or cutting. I assume less volume + cardio for cutting, and more volume no cardio for bulking? But im sure this will be adressed in one of the podcasts or your journal.

Thx again.


#9

Ive been looking at the sheiko stuff, and will try to keep my starting program pretty basic. Here is what Ive come up with as of now.

Monday:

Bench CG
Squat
Chest
GM or RDL

Wednesday:

Deficit deadlift (conventional)
Vertical Press
Shoulders
Deadlift or rack pull (sumo / semi-sumo)
Lunges
ABS

Friday:

Bench
Triceps
Squat
GM or RDL

There will probably be a fourth day, either tuesday or saturday, where i’d throw in some of those things i wanted but couldn’t fit (rows, face pulls, rotator cuff work, sled, calves, etc.)

I’ll probably try to use the percentages and set/rep guidelines from sheiko #29, but as I see it now, monday is squat/bench, wed is deadlift/press, and friday is bench/squat and im not sure but it seems as if wednesdays bench should be a bit easier, than M and F, and possibly F has a higher intensity with less volume. But this will be more clear if I follow the percentages.

Also, I want to get a lifting belt, but am not sure what to get. Any recommendations?


#10

Dankid, I think that a lever belt is something more people show own. It’s easy to put on & take off. I used to use a pronged belt, but I won’t go back to it again. Inzer produced the belt I currently use.

As for cutting/bulking, I’ve never tried to directly bulk, but the routine should add some extra mass as long as you eat right.

For cutting, I’m using my current cycle to cut while coming off pf an injury. I entirely changed
my diet and now actually do cardio. I’m hoping to see some noticeable results at the end of the second cycle using this diet. It’s still very experimental righit now.

Follow my log and maybe you can see something I have overlooked. Like I said, it’s still a wwprk in progress.


#11

Thx again for the advice. I’ll be following your log for sure. As my “deload” im going to progress into the program starting with just one movement group per day. I did a lot of deadlift and legs on monday, so im not gonna do them today.

Instead i’m gonna do:

BB floor press
Standing DB press
Rows


#12

Today was the last day of my “deload” and i wanted to sorta test run what I came up with for my sheiko plan i’ll be starting next week. I did week 1 day 3’s workout, but only used the full weight on the squatting movements; since this is still technically deload. Im glad I did this little trial run. I thought it was going to be so easy, but the workout was pretty tough, even with the reduced upper body intensity. Here is what I did today.

I estimated my maxes and subtracted a bit to get the following maxes:

Bench 235
Squat 315
Dead 350

Week 0 Day 3

Wide box squat - 160x5 , 190x4, 220x2x3, 235x5x3
DB bench 4x10 (70’s)
Narrow box squat - 220 4x4
Flys - 3x10 (15’s) normally will do 5x10

***The box squats I do are just for depth, I dont actually sit on the box. Im going to bring my width in on my squatting a bit, because i’ll be pulling sumo every week, and I dont want to beat my hips up too much. The narrow box squats were VERY narrow, with my feet about 8" apart.

It was a tough workout. I dont think I quite did it right, because it only took about 1 hour, and there were three of us working out. Our rest breaks were basically the time to change the weight and for the other two people to do their sets. But I figure this is the BASE PREP prograam, so i’ll sacrifice a bit of strength for some better conditioning early on.

All the percentages I used were off the base prep program #29. 75% on the 5x3 and 70% on the 4x4. The only change I made to this day, was that I didn’t do the bench pyramid, and instead just went 4x10 on DB bench. The progression on these will be on weeks 2-3 and will be either adding 1 rep per week to all sets, or adding weight and keeping it 4x10.

The other days have a bit more dramatic changes, but im trying to leave most of the core lifts percentages the same.

Thx to all of you for your advice. I’ll be starting on sunday or monday, and will throw a log up either in the powerlifting section.


#13

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
I would only add that I don’t think Sheiko would be a big fan of box squatting twice a week as in the program you posted. If you want to try out a coach’s philosophy, my suggestion would be to do it as indicated (like on 29) for a month or two and then tweak it, don’t tweak it right off the bat. The percentages are pretty easy to do either with a spreadsheet or just because they repeat all the time (once you know what 80% is for example it just keeps coming up).

In regards to your other questions, you can add in one extra day of lighter, lower volume stuff. I would usually do back/bis on that day for 30 min or something, calves can go anywhere on the program.

And yes you can modify the suggested assistance exercises to work on things you think you need to work on. As a side note a lot of translated programs have the lifter doing DB Flyes all of the time but personally I think Sheiko is suggesting a neutral grip DB Press performed with a similar pressing motion to a bench press (arch the DB back over face). Good luck with it, hope you enjoy it.[/quote]

This is a program Sheiko would use on a beginning lifter. As Eric Talmant presents in his DVD series, Sheiko used the box squats with beginners because he thought it encouraged proper squat technique.

OP, if you aren’t a beginner, start with Sheiko #29 or just do the 13 week program in Sheiko Shakes up Powerlifting, which is based on #29, #37, then #32.


#14

[quote]mrodock wrote:
Tim Henriques wrote:
I would only add that I don’t think Sheiko would be a big fan of box squatting twice a week as in the program you posted. If you want to try out a coach’s philosophy, my suggestion would be to do it as indicated (like on 29) for a month or two and then tweak it, don’t tweak it right off the bat. The percentages are pretty easy to do either with a spreadsheet or just because they repeat all the time (once you know what 80% is for example it just keeps coming up).

In regards to your other questions, you can add in one extra day of lighter, lower volume stuff. I would usually do back/bis on that day for 30 min or something, calves can go anywhere on the program.

And yes you can modify the suggested assistance exercises to work on things you think you need to work on. As a side note a lot of translated programs have the lifter doing DB Flyes all of the time but personally I think Sheiko is suggesting a neutral grip DB Press performed with a similar pressing motion to a bench press (arch the DB back over face). Good luck with it, hope you enjoy it.

This is a program Sheiko would use on a beginning lifter. As Eric Talmant presents in his DVD series, Sheiko used the box squats with beginners because he thought it encouraged proper squat technique.

OP, if you aren’t a beginner, start with Sheiko #29 or just do the 13 week program in Sheiko Shakes up Powerlifting, which is based on #29, #37, then #32.[/quote]

I have to agree with TIM in terms of no changes to the program for the first 2 or 3 cycles.

I think box squats have their place among equipped lifters, but I found that type of squatting not very helpful for the raw lifter. If it works for him, then use it, but I feel the routine really should be done simply with regular old squats and I had a much much higher carry over from squatting normally when trying to max since I don’t max out on box squats.

Not very many people around here have apparently used the original template. EFS’s is fairly different and I think a beneficial side effect from using the original routine is that you can see why someone changed the routine… and there’s my point.

Everyone is using EFS’s routine as if its concrete. I think Boris’s original plan was to have people run through the routine 2 or 3 times, then start to change things that’ll improve the lifter’s gains.

If you read my log, you’ll say “WTF, this isn’t Sheiko” for the most part. I’ll say, right, its not Boris’s original template, but it was originally. I’ve changed it over 3 years to suit my weaknesses. That’s how this, and any other, program should be addressed, don’t change ANYTHING, then start to adapt it to your problems as time passes and you can assess what’s going right and what’s going wrong.


#15

Ok guys, ive done a lot of reading, and have considered everything suggested. I know it is absolutely SILLY to modify a program before you have tried it, especially something that is prep like sheiko #29, but there are a few things that I know i’ll HAVE to change. And there are a few things im changing just because im a bit stubborn.

But I did week 0 to “get my feet wet” and to start this on the right track. Some of these reasons, are that I shouldn’t be doing incline or dips, and that benching with a bar 3x is probably a bad idea for me, so one day will be DB’s instead. I’ll be working out with two other people, and we are kinda strapped for time and workout in the evenings so our workouts need to be 60-90 minutes MAX. But enough of my reasoning, if my changes are a mistake, i’ll have to live with it. If I dont make gains, i’ll have to figure out why, or wait until im able to do the program as written.

So here is the weekly plan:

Day 1:

Bench
Squat
Bench
Flies
GM

Day 2:

Deficit Dead
Bench
Tricep
Deadlift
Lunges
Abs

Day 3:

Squat
DB bench
Flies
GM

Weeks 2-4 will be how they normally appear with the above changes. I tried to keep the changes minimal while still adressing my limitations to the original routine. The only big changes that I made by choice, were to do deficit deads instead of halting (deadlift to the knees) Ive done halting deadlifts in the past and have had more success with deficit deads. And also, my benching will almost always be close grip. I bench close grip, even when I max, and the only time I go any wider is if im specifically working on wide grip bench. My shoulders have been so much healthier since doing this, so im gonna stick with it. (My bench max is based off my CG bench) Lastly, I do almost always box squat. But I dont do it the way they do at westside or EFS. I use it for depth, and only lightly touch the box. I do not relax any muscles when I touch the box. This has helped me a lot with squatting, and I pretty much always do this, except once in a while i’ll do heavier sets or my max without a box. And I dont squat so much like a geared lifter, but more Raw.

Other than all of that, everything has been kept as close to the original in sets/reps/%'s as possible. Im getting pretty pumped up to do this starting tommorow or monday, an will get that log started as well. Thx again.


#16

I found a great link with sheiko’s 29-40, all translated and everything.

I have done sheiko #29 twice before, and was planning on doing #37 because it was the next one I found translated. But now that I have access to #30 and so on, are these meant to be done in order? I would assume so.

Anyone have any insight or opinion on this? Here is the link for anyone interested

www.traininganarchy.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7367&d=1273061630


#17

[quote]kheaslim wrote:
I found a great link with sheiko’s 29-40, all translated and everything.

I have done sheiko #29 twice before, and was planning on doing #37 because it was the next one I found translated. But now that I have access to #30 and so on, are these meant to be done in order? I would assume so.

Anyone have any insight or opinion on this? Here is the link for anyone interested

www.traininganarchy.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7367&d=1273061630[/quote]

The training routines are not always meant to be done in order per se. If I remember correctly, the numbers used to designate the routines were not done in a meaningful way.

I have read the following combinations were frequently used:

-29, 37, 32
-30, 31, 32
-29, 30, 31, 32

You really have to consider the volume and intensity of each block, and if you feel you are prepared for it. Selecting something that is too difficult increases the risk of injury and failing to build strength. I worked off of 29, 37, 32 for about a year. A couple of times I did 29, 37 (added volume), 37, 32 for instance. Sheiko in his book talks about how you have to modify the routines to suit your own personal needs and characteristics.


#18

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:

If you noticed, Sheiko and 5/3/1 are not too dissimilar. The bottom line is that basic movements work.

[/quote]

That right there is the quote of the day.

Having done about 2 years of Sheiko, My workouts have evolved to more or less doing a 29 block (without repeating exercises the same day), going light the last week of the block for deload, and for the next cycle adding 10 lbs to my bench and dead and 5lbs to the bench. I keep assistance lifts minimal and pick them based upon where my weaknesses lie.

Looks slightly familiar to another popular workout scheme, doesn’t it?


#19

Choosing assistance excercises

Sheiko: (opposite parings)

Squat>Goodmornings
Deadlift>Lunges
Bench>Flies

The idea behind this is that if there is a movement using X and Y muscle groups you do one X muscle dominant movement and do a Y assistance excercise.

Olympic: (same parings)

Front Squat>Goodmornings
Back Squat>Cleans

The Idea behind this is you should never mix similar technique movements on the same day so that you always keep perfect form. You are doing both X and Y on the same day.
For the same reason, they never mix squat style jerking and split stance jerking in the same training session.

Sheiko’s Squat>Goodmorning combo confuses me because a geared squat is similar to a Goodmorning in movement analysis, this is kind of against the principles of Olympic Lifting.
Even though Sheiko is based on Olympic lifting style training, do you think that this difference is an improvement for training powerlifting? Why?

This is just some food for thought. Express your opinions if you like.


#20

Although, they do do same parings like the Snatch>Back Squat, and the C&J>Front Squat…