T Nation

Sex Crimes and Vatican

[quote]etaco wrote:
A better analogy would be having kids solely to worship you unconditionally regardless of your flaws as a parent or as a person and regardless of how you treat them.

If they dare to disobey or if they even show the slightest indication of wavering faith when your incompetence, apathy, or malignance is laid bare, you will take your child down to the basement and “call a couple of hard pipe-hitting niggers to go to work on the holmes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. [… and] get medieval on [their] ass.”

That’s some disturbed behavior.[/quote]

Good one, etaco!

Few points you missed though.

  • God knows our weaknesses and forgives the ones who repent. So, your “if they dare to disobey or if they even show the slightest indication of wavering faith” argument crumbles.
  • He isn’t treating us that badly; He’s given us a great planet with all kinds of delightful food, sophisticated bodies, amazing panorama, and gorgeous women.
  • The “kids” will ultimately see your flaws. For all we know, God has none.
  • Most of what God told us to do was to be nice to each other, to ourselves, to acknowledge his uniqueness, and once in a while worship Him. Seems like a fair deal to me.

[quote]John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.[/quote]

God knows all. God knows exaclty what would happen to every human ever after he made Adam the way he did. He could have made Adam different. Therefore, everything that happens is God’s fault.

Or you could just be a deist.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.

God knows all. God knows exaclty what would happen to every human ever after he made Adam the way he did. He could have made Adam different. Therefore, everything that happens is God’s fault.

Or you could just be a deist.
[/quote]

You have a very broad view on this don’t you. I will repeat myself again, this time I will try and slow it down for you.

Free will means we have many choices.

God knows the outcome for each choice,

But its up for us to pick the right choice.

We are given the ability for the right choice every time, Its not Gods fault its ours for not choosing right.

[quote]John S. wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.

God knows all. God knows exaclty what would happen to every human ever after he made Adam the way he did. He could have made Adam different. Therefore, everything that happens is God’s fault.

Or you could just be a deist.

You have a very broad view on this don’t you. I will repeat myself again, this time I will try and slow it down for you.

Free will means we have many choices.

God knows the outcome for each choice,

But its up for us to pick the right choice.

We are given the ability for the right choice every time, Its not Gods fault its ours for not choosing right.
[/quote]

Did God not know how everything would be if he made the first human the way he did? Could he not have made the first human differently, therefore changing every subsequent humans decisions?

The only way to reconcile God with freewill is to make God non-omnipotent, like the Olympians or the god as watchmaker of deism.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.

God knows all. God knows exaclty what would happen to every human ever after he made Adam the way he did. He could have made Adam different. Therefore, everything that happens is God’s fault.

Or you could just be a deist.

You have a very broad view on this don’t you. I will repeat myself again, this time I will try and slow it down for you.

Free will means we have many choices.

God knows the outcome for each choice,

But its up for us to pick the right choice.

We are given the ability for the right choice every time, Its not Gods fault its ours for not choosing right.

Did God not know how everything would be if he made the first human the way he did? Could he not have made the first human differently, therefore changing every subsequent humans decisions?

The only way to reconcile God with freewill is to make God non-omnipotent, like the Olympians or the god as watchmaker of deism.[/quote]

No, God knew all the possibility’s, The fact that God gave us free will let us choose are path.

God did not want robots to worship him, he wants man. Do you not understand this basic concept because you keep up with the same argument when it has been explained time and time again.

[quote]John S. wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.

God knows all. God knows exaclty what would happen to every human ever after he made Adam the way he did. He could have made Adam different. Therefore, everything that happens is God’s fault.

Or you could just be a deist.

You have a very broad view on this don’t you. I will repeat myself again, this time I will try and slow it down for you.

Free will means we have many choices.

God knows the outcome for each choice,

But its up for us to pick the right choice.

We are given the ability for the right choice every time, Its not Gods fault its ours for not choosing right.

Did God not know how everything would be if he made the first human the way he did? Could he not have made the first human differently, therefore changing every subsequent humans decisions?

The only way to reconcile God with freewill is to make God non-omnipotent, like the Olympians or the god as watchmaker of deism.

No, God knew all the possibility’s, The fact that God gave us free will let us choose are path.

God did not want robots to worship him, he wants man. Do you not understand this basic concept because you keep up with the same argument when it has been explained time and time again.[/quote]

So your admitting God is NOT omnipotent? That he lives only in the moment, and views time the same way we do, linearly? Of course, that must also mean he has a beginning and an end. So what was before God? If someone created God, is their not a higher power than God?

Face it, as long as God is an omnipotent being, free will cannot exist. It is impossible. If God, however, is NOT omnipotent, than free will CAN exist.

If God is omnipotent, he already knows exactly what we are going to do. He knew before time started, he’s always known. Therefore, we have no free will.

God cannot have anything BUT robots, because their is nothing natural that is not GOD. God has to create it before it can worship him. Therefore, he gave it the inclination to worship him, because he gave it everything.

[quote]John S. wrote:

No, God knew all the possibility’s, The fact that God gave us free will let us choose are path.

God did not want robots to worship him, he wants man. Do you not understand this basic concept because you keep up with the same argument when it has been explained time and time again.[/quote]

If something is predetermined, there is no free will involved.

If god knows everything that will happen, then its impossible to make a choice that god didnt know was going to happen.

[quote]John S. wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.

God knows all. God knows exaclty what would happen to every human ever after he made Adam the way he did. He could have made Adam different. Therefore, everything that happens is God’s fault.

Or you could just be a deist.

You have a very broad view on this don’t you. I will repeat myself again, this time I will try and slow it down for you.

Free will means we have many choices.

God knows the outcome for each choice,

But its up for us to pick the right choice.

We are given the ability for the right choice every time, Its not Gods fault its ours for not choosing right.
[/quote]

I’m going to tackle a few things in one post.

Assume there exists a god, God, that is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing, blah blah.

If God creates something, then, because he is all-knowing, knows EVERYTHING that will happen to it during its lifetime.

As an addendum to the list of properties of God, he is not removed from his own power. That is, he is all-knowing of the path that EVERYTHING will take, including his own. If he didn’t know everything he was going to do in the future, then he is not all-knowing, which contradicts the definition.

Then, when God creates a person, assumed to have free-will, God knows all the decisions that person will make. Therefore, at creation, God knows what a person will be judged as at the end of their lifetime.

Moreover, because he is omnipotent and set everything in motion, he CREATED that person, knowing everything that person would do, either for A(SOME) purpose(s) or NO purpose. Therefore, God intended the person to be that way.

This person can either go to Heaven, the everlasting nice place, or Hell, the everlasting bad place. Because God already knows where the person will go, then God created that person knowing where they will go. Thus, God sends people to Heaven or Hell not because of their choices, but because he made them to go to Heaven or Hell.

As to Free Will, imagine, for the moment, that the person is a dot traveling along a path, and that the path comes to a gate, where the person can either make the “Good” decision or the “Bad” decision (this is an oversimplification of decision making processes, but since hindsight is 20-20 and we’re observing the actions of an All-Knowing being, its fair to say that most decisions can be treated in this way), which then leads to another path with another gate, and so on and so forth until the end of the path has been reached, either in Heaven or Hell, depending on the number of good or bad decisions made.

As an All-Knowing being, God already know which gates the person will pass and which paths will be chosen. Then he can draw a line that traces the path of the person, and ignore the gates. Because God is All-Knowing, from his perspective, there is no free will, as he already made all the decisions when he created the person because he created the person to make those decisions.

But to the person, who makes the decisions and can not see the line to his destination, he has free will.

Obviously, an assumption was made incorrectly. Either God is not All-Knowing, or the person has no Free Will, or both, as the two are mutually exclusive.

-Gendou

For the record, Beowulf summed up my argument. If you can’t understand my mildly rigorous treatment, then you should work on understand his.

All-Knowing, All-Powerful gods can create NOTHING but robots, because they give the creation EVERYTHING that makes them a separate creation.

-Gendou

Alright, ill break my post down to the nitty gritty because anything thing else goes over your head.

Free will does not somehow make him not omnipotent. He knows all of are choices and knows each path they will take us. Free will allows us to choose a path. God is not in the moment because we can be damn sure 95% of all are choices we know the right one. Incase you do not understand I will break that statement down for you.

We know what where supposed to do(admit that we stole something, not punch that kid in the face). If we do what God has set us up to do most of the time, in the moment things go great, but always things at the end work out fantastic. We can break away from Gods original plan but usually are life gets left fucked up.

This will be the last time I post this exact same message. I will not break it down for you even farther, if you can not see it in depth then its obvious im wasting my time because you have no interest in learning about it.

P.s. Its a crappy tactic to just keep reposting the same question over and over again when it has been clearly answered.

P.s.s. God bless you all.

[quote]John S. wrote:
We can break away from Gods original plan but usually are life gets left fucked up.
[/quote]

There we have it. God is not omnipotent.

If you bothered reading my argument, you’d understand. WE’VE posted the exact same question because you never answer it. You give vague responses that probably pass as answers to people who don’t give it more than five minutes thought.

And then you finally answered it. We are capable of subverting God’s plan. Sure, it may mean he punishes the living crap out of us, but through conscious effort of will, it is possible to subvert the plan of a DEITY. Go Mankind.

-Gendou

[quote]gendou57 wrote:
John S. wrote:
We can break away from Gods original plan but usually are life gets left fucked up.

There we have it. God is not omnipotent.

If you bothered reading my argument, you’d understand. WE’VE posted the exact same question because you never answer it. You give vague responses that probably pass as answers to people who don’t give it more than five minutes thought.

And then you finally answered it. We are capable of subverting God’s plan. Sure, it may mean he punishes the living crap out of us, but through conscious effort of will, it is possible to subvert the plan of a DEITY. Go Mankind.

-Gendou[/quote]

look what happend to mankind after we deverted from his plan.

And please don’t give me this it takes 5 minutes to look through it, I should have seen you tear through my argument instead all I am seeing now is a last ditch effort to somehow be right. God knows all the options we are presented it is up to us to choose the right one, we go too far off the plan we are usually set back on the right track.

Im done with this thread, I have made my point and am getting tired of the same questions, if any of you wish to continue this discussion please pm me. I will not be looking back into this thread so if you have anything to say to me again, please pm me.

[quote]John S. wrote:
gendou57 wrote:
John S. wrote:
We can break away from Gods original plan but usually are life gets left fucked up.

There we have it. God is not omnipotent.

If you bothered reading my argument, you’d understand. WE’VE posted the exact same question because you never answer it. You give vague responses that probably pass as answers to people who don’t give it more than five minutes thought.

And then you finally answered it. We are capable of subverting God’s plan. Sure, it may mean he punishes the living crap out of us, but through conscious effort of will, it is possible to subvert the plan of a DEITY. Go Mankind.

-Gendou

look what happend to mankind after we deverted from his plan.

And please don’t give me this it takes 5 minutes to look through it, I should have seen you tear through my argument instead all I am seeing now is a last ditch effort to somehow be right. God knows all the options we are presented it is up to us to choose the right one, we go too far off the plan we are usually set back on the right track.

Im done with this thread, I have made my point and am getting tired of the same questions, if any of you wish to continue this discussion please pm me. I will not be looking back into this thread so if you have anything to say to me again, please pm me.[/quote]

You’ve pretty much stated over and over that God is not omnipotent.

Can God create a burrito so hot that he himself cannot eat it?

Yes, but if it is so hot god cannot eat it, it must be greater than God.

But as nothing can be greater than God, it must be God.

Therefore, God is a burrito.

Of course, we know burritos exist, therefore, God exists. Damn… I just converted to Burritoism…

And now I’m hungry…

-Gendou

[quote]John S. wrote:
Free will means we have many choices.

God knows the outcome for each choice,

But its up for us to pick the right choice.[/quote]

Does God know which one you’ll pick before you do?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Let me know if you find any in the Quran.[/quote]

[11:7] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His (earthly) domain was completely covered with water - in order to test you, to distinguish those among you who work righteousness. Yet, when you say, “You will be resurrected after death,” those who disbelieve would say, “This is clearly witchcraft.”

Allah needs to test us to be able to distinguish which of us work righteousness?

Doesn’t He know?

If He doesn’t, He’s not omniscient; if He does, the test is unrequired and useless. So, either A) Allah is not that great or B) the Quran is wrong. Of course C) both A and B is also a possibility (the correct answer in fact…)

So what’s this lixy? Try to turn the tables by turning to Catholic bashing? I guess it’s safer than continually bashing Israel, nobody can call you an anti-Semite for bashing Catholicism, but I see it as a thinly veiled attempted, by you, to turn the tables and take the focus off of Islam.

Besides, you’ll have more than enough people willing to jump in with you. I see right through you and you’re little strawman. Can we move to bashing Scientology next? How about Hindu’s with all those gods they have?
You’re pathetic and weak.

[quote]John S. wrote:
God did not want robots to worship him, he wants man.[/quote]

Why? What need does “worship” fulfill for God? Is He so petty that he needs billions of adoring entities who do nothing but revel in his presence all day and night?

Your God is very odd.

[quote]kroby wrote:
This strengthens my argument on another thread that humans ruin religion.
[/quote]

On the contrary, religion ruins humans. Religion is an invention of man used to exploit the ignorant and force them into submission. As such it does only one of two things; it either corrupts those in power or it subjugates those without power.

Thank your lucky stars people like Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton had the stones to question that dogma and bring forth enlightenment based on observation and not delusions of the “rapture”.

It’s called “enlightenment” because the darkness of unquestioning submission was expunged from humanity with the ability to formalize observation.

[quote]haney1 wrote:
kroby wrote:

options
3. He exist and does care.[/quote]

yet sits on the sideline? What? Testing us? To what end? To prove we are good, and deserving of his beneficence? To make God feel proud?

But God is infinite, which includes us, as we are a part of His creation. So, God would see the destruction of Himself? Impossible.

Indeed. And this is a point I really wish to stress. Humans, being far, far from the mind and understanding of God, cannot know anything OF god, besides His existence. Therefore, to presume He would want worshippers, sacrifices and judgement is the prime mistake. We presume.

All other decisions on a false premise (we know what God wills) make a whole lot of nothing. This comes back to my original theme. Religions are a creation of Man, not doing Gods will, but mans. Man has created an image, an ideal of God, and it is false.

[quote]What is the middle of the road truism? I’ll crack it like an egg.

You making logical fallacies and assuming that you are making head way is the only thing getting cracked.
[/quote]

That is a non answer.