T Nation

Sex Crimes and Vatican

The current number one on Google Video is a BBC documentary that investigates pedophiles, their victims, and the complicity of the Church.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3237027119714361315

I don’t wanna spoil it, but let me say that it’s very disturbing because it involves the highest clergy officials.

I wanna go on the record as saying that such actions have nothing to do with the message of Christianity, its prophet Jesus, or the great majority of its followers. Agreed?

Agreed.

Anti-Islam threads have been pwned and are now yummy newbcakes (or newbmuffins, as the T-Nation trend stands).

This strengthens my argument on another thread that humans ruin religion.

IF God wanted us to worship him in a special way, He would come down and force us to do it His way, without our ability to choose. Like breathing. We have to breathe, or we die.

Hm. No God come down from the heavens yet and make us worship or die. Either:

A) He must not care
B) He must not exist

Interesting predicament.

[quote]kroby wrote:
This strengthens my argument on another thread that humans ruin religion.

IF God wanted us to worship him in a special way, He would come down and force us to do it His way, without our ability to choose. Like breathing. We have to breathe, or we die.

Hm. No God come down from the heavens yet and make us worship or die. Either:

A) He must not care
B) He must not exist

Interesting predicament.[/quote]

Really?? thats the only conclusion you can come too?

Allow me to explain a theory about this. God would not create man if he could not question him(If you want people to worship you with free will why would you force them). It means a lot more to have other options but still choose him. Again this is just one theory out of many.

[quote]John S. wrote:
kroby wrote:
This strengthens my argument on another thread that humans ruin religion.

IF God wanted us to worship him in a special way, He would come down and force us to do it His way, without our ability to choose. Like breathing. We have to breathe, or we die.

Hm. No God come down from the heavens yet and make us worship or die. Either:

A) He must not care
B) He must not exist

Interesting predicament.

Really?? thats the only conclusion you can come too?

Allow me to explain a theory about this. God would not create man if he could not question him(If you want people to worship you with free will why would you force them). It means a lot more to have other options but still choose him. Again this is just one theory out of many.
[/quote]

So you do accept that “choice” is the crux of the matter? Such as, choose me, your God, or burn in an eternal lake of blood and fire? And it’s not even a choice of God or not, it’s a choice of religion! Choose to be muslim, forsaking Jesus, and be damned for eternity. Sure, you still believe in God (Allah), but since you don’t believe the only true religion, you shall suffer the consequences.

Why would God allow multiple religions for Himself? To test the faithful, the true believers? Why? If God wanted to radiate His light upon all of mankind, what does weeding out the foolish do for Him? Does He not want all of Mankind to know of Him? Does God have any real interest in playing tricks on mankind?

I submit God does not play tricks. It is counterproductive. We are all His children, we cannot be separated from Him. He owns us, lock stock and barrel. He cannot separate Him from Himself, as we are just a part of Him. So to presume that God can “cut off His hand” and cast it away forever, is simply absurd. So is worshipping Him only one way, over the others. We have no choice. He owns us, and will collect, regardless.

Again, you offer God with human frailties, such as impetuousness and holding grudges, shunning those that may presume to go against God.
That God does not exist, as it is a construct of MAN. Yes, the God you worship does not exist. Religion has perverted an idea for self interest.

[quote]kroby wrote:
This strengthens my argument on another thread that humans ruin religion.

IF God wanted us to worship him in a special way, He would come down and force us to do it His way, without our ability to choose. Like breathing. We have to breathe, or we die.

Hm. No God come down from the heavens yet and make us worship or die. Either:

A) He must not care
B) He must not exist

Interesting predicament.[/quote]

No it is a logical fallacy that you are commiting. It is known as a false dilemma.

You have not strengthened your case you have shown you have not thought it out very well.

False dilemma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The formal fallacy of false dilemma?also known as false choice, false dichotomy, falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false correlative, either/or fallacy and bifurcation?involves a situation in which two alternative statements are held to be the only options, when in reality there exist one or more other options which have not been considered. The two alternatives presented are often, though not always, the two extreme points on some spectrum. Instead of such extreme simplification and wishful thinking, considering the whole spectrum, as in fuzzy logic, may be more appropriate. A typical false dilemma is the assertion “You are either for us or you are against us.” The fallacy of this type of argument is that it tries to eliminate the middle ground.

[quote]John S. wrote:
God would not create man if he could not question him.[/quote]

What use would an omniscient being have for “questions?” Is He going to learn something He doesn’t already know? In fact, has always known?

It’s completely illogical for an omnipotent, omniscient being to have wants, desires, questions; to take “rest” days after working the previous 6 etc.

[quote]pookie wrote:
What use would an omniscient being have for “questions?” Is He going to learn something He doesn’t already know? In fact, has always known?

It’s completely illogical for an omnipotent, omniscient being to have wants, desires, questions; to take “rest” days after working the previous 6 etc.
[/quote]

I’m gonna agree with you on all the points.

What John S. probably meant, is that God shall hold us accountable for the way we behaved on Earth.

Please don’t turn the thread into yet another “Does God exist?”.

[quote]haney1 wrote:
kroby wrote:

A) He must not care
B) He must not exist

No it is a logical fallacy that you are commiting. It is known as a false dilemma.

You have not strengthened your case you have shown you have not thought it out very well.

False dilemma
The fallacy of this type of argument is that it tries to eliminate the middle ground.

[/quote]

Oh? Just by your saying so doesn’t make my statement a false dilemma. I have thought it out quite completely. Tell me, what other choices are there that prove God desires humanity

(again, how does the alpha and omega, the infinite, come to have human qualities?)

… prove God desires humanity to worship him, like some petty lord. We all know the consequences for not eating, drinking, breathing. Why are there more than one religion? Each one props itself up as the true and only one. How is it that the false religions are allowed to exist, if God knows which one is the real one? Again, your resultant conclusion is that God is tricking us. I reject that premise. So, then why do multiple religions exist? Give me another plausible explanation. My two offered quite completely cover all the bases. You not liking the options and calling my assertions false doesn’t make it so. What is the middle of the road truism? I’ll crack it like an egg.

[quote]lixy wrote:
pookie wrote:
What use would an omniscient being have for “questions?” Is He going to learn something He doesn’t already know? In fact, has always known?

It’s completely illogical for an omnipotent, omniscient being to have wants, desires, questions; to take “rest” days after working the previous 6 etc.

I’m gonna agree with you on all the points.

What John S. probably meant, is that God shall hold us accountable for the way we behaved on Earth. [/quote]

WHY?!? He already knows what’s to happen! Why would he either allow us to do unspeakable things or punish us when He knows it’s gonna happen? And what does punishment (judgement leads to this) do for Him? Vindication? Retribution? Satisfaction? Again, you’re assigning human weaknesses on the Almighty. God is not a man with these qualities, so why would you assume that such concepts even apply?

A better discourse would be which God exists.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Please don’t turn the thread into yet another “Does God exist?”.[/quote]

I’m simply wondering how believers reconcile the oft cited theological attributes of God (omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence) with the revealed texts they attribute to Him. There is a lot of incongruity between what God claims to have done and said in the various books and being truly omniscient/potent/benevolent.

[quote]kroby wrote:
WHY?!? He already knows what’s to happen! Why would he either allow us to do unspeakable things or punish us when He knows it’s gonna happen? And what does punishment (judgement leads to this) do for Him? Vindication? Retribution? Satisfaction? Again, you’re assigning human weaknesses on the Almighty. God is not a man with these qualities, so why would you assume that such concepts even apply? [/quote]

When a judge sentences someone to jail time, do you think there is vindication or satisfaction is in his mind? Surely, an ideal judge wouldn’t.

The free-will/pre-destiny debate is nothing new. Why beat a dead horse when we all know a categorical answer cannot be found?

[quote]pookie wrote:
There is a lot of incongruity between what God claims to have done and said in the various books and being truly omniscient/potent/benevolent. [/quote]

Let me know if you find any in the Quran.

[quote]lixy wrote:
When a judge sentences someone to jail time, do you think there is vindication or satisfaction is in his mind? Surely, an ideal judge wouldn’t.
[/quote]

True justice would be the undoing of the crime. Everything else is a degree of retribution. Hence the term “Pay for your crimes.”

The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.

[quote]kroby wrote:
Oh? Just by your saying so doesn’t make my statement a false dilemma.
[/quote]
No your original post makes it a false Dilmma.

options
3. He exist and does care.
4. He allows the bad seed to Destroy themselves.
5. There are endless possibilities when considering God.

Prove to me God doesn’t. Oh wow now we are stuck at square one! Your assertions are not proof. Your conclusions are not evidence.

You keep making all these logical fallacies.

I will point them out for you.

Sweeping Generalization

Disjunctive Syllogism

You not liking the options and calling my assertions false doesn’t make it so. What is the middle of the road truism? I’ll crack it like an egg.[/quote]

You making logical fallacies and assuming that you are making head way is the only thing getting cracked.

[quote]kroby wrote:
lixy wrote:

I’m gonna agree with you on all the points.

What John S. probably meant, is that God shall hold us accountable for the way we behaved on Earth.

WHY?!? He already knows what’s to happen! Why would he either allow us to do unspeakable things or punish us when He knows it’s gonna happen? And what does punishment (judgement leads to this) do for Him? Vindication? Retribution? Satisfaction? Again, you’re assigning human weaknesses on the Almighty. God is not a man with these qualities, so why would you assume that such concepts even apply?
[/quote]

Nice argument style. Just ask so many questions that it is impossible for some one to reply to you. most of your questions are not even on the same topic. Although in your mind I’m sure they flow together. You go from staying on topic to making another fallacy. Red herring anyone?

you start by asking why does God judge when he already knows what is going to happen, then out of no where you jump to Assigning attributes of a man to God. They are not relevent at this point. It isn’t the same topic.

[quote]kroby wrote:
lixy wrote:
When a judge sentences someone to jail time, do you think there is vindication or satisfaction is in his mind? Surely, an ideal judge wouldn’t.

True justice would be the undoing of the crime. Everything else is a degree of retribution. Hence the term “Pay for your crimes.”[/quote]

So true justice is a big eraser for life? Funny I have never seen that definition of justice before. What dictionary did you get that from?

[quote]John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.[/quote]

A better analogy would be having kids solely to worship you unconditionally regardless of your flaws as a parent or as a person and regardless of how you treat them.

If they dare to disobey or if they even show the slightest indication of wavering faith when your incompetence, apathy, or malignance is laid bare, you will take your child down to the basement and “call a couple of hard pipe-hitting niggers to go to work on the holmes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. [… and] get medieval on [their] ass.”

That’s some disturbed behavior.

[quote]etaco wrote:
John S. wrote:
The way I was saying was think of it this way.

Man is free will(we can all agree on this), God wanted man to worship him not robots. Allow me to put it into another subject so you can see it that way.

Would you want to marry something that all you had to do was pull its string and it would say it loved you? thats pretty meaningless. But when you have someone with free will the ability to choose anyone else to love but they love you, that the best thing in the world right?

Thats the way man is to God. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.

A better analogy would be having kids solely to worship you unconditionally regardless of your flaws as a parent or as a person and regardless of how you treat them.

If they dare to disobey or if they even show the slightest indication of wavering faith when your incompetence, apathy, or malignance is laid bare, you will take your child down to the basement and “call a couple of hard pipe-hitting niggers to go to work on the holmes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. [… and] get medieval on [their] ass.”

That’s some disturbed behavior.[/quote]

First, You say love you even if you have flaws, that in itself is saying God has flaws which he does not.

Second, Adam and eve got to see God yet disobeyed him, he punished man kind but even as they where leaving said he would send a savior. he showed mercy even after they did that.