Just finished day 1 of the SWIS seminar in Toronto.During a lecture by Dr.Erasmus on fats, he addressed the audience that he doesnt recommend whey protein because in his (and mine)mind it makes people fat.He also told of a study that it causes type 1 diabetes in children.Well Dr.Serranno was in the audience and started acting very rude and talked some mumbo jumbo about whey making people leaner.Well the argument went back and forth for about 10 minutes which also included the audience.I guess Serranno lost the argument because he picked up his bags and left.Whatever happened to having an open mind.As Mel Siff said in an aerlier lecture, put your self in the opposite seat and compare views.In my experience whey has not done anything to most people but make them fat.Can others give me their experience.Please serious responses only.Thanx in advance.WSTRAINER.

If I remember correctly, back in the early 90’s one of the reasons Dan Duchaine recommended whey for postworkout was because it generated a large insulin spike. In fact, I think he made this recommendation in the very first issue of MM2K. Maybe this is related to what Erasmus is talking about.

What’s been the latest research on whey? I know that whey/caesin has been touted as the best combo since the whey can be absorbed pretty quickly, and the caesin stays in the system a bit longer. Personally, I’ve never had a problem with whey making me fat, mostly just processed carbs and sugars (took me forever to rehab from cokes!) Anyone else have a similar or different experience?

Body fat percentages have never had anything to do with the type protein supplement I was using at the time. I have dieted for shows using almost exclusively whey and gotten ripped. As well as, bulked using all types of protein and seen an increase in body fat percentage.

Okay, so WSTRAINER, I must thank you: you have made me reread just about EVERY article about protein in T-Mag. Particularly, "The Protein Roundtable" and "Battle of the Proteins".

However, there was no mention of whey protein making people fat. Is this a new report? I would like to hear this one. Damn, I wish I was at SWIS.

Guess they should start taking all that evil fattening WHEY protein out of Grow!. To think, all this time I thought that was muscle I was growing…

I think Erasmus and WSTRAINER are right. I
don’t care how many studies you show me about
whey causing fat loss. My real world results
are that whey makes me fat. This has been
discussed on the T-mag forum before (do a
search). Others on the forum have also
mentioned this problem. I don’t know if it
causes type I diabetes or not, but I do know
that I seem to have some sort of “allergic-
like” reaction to it. I don’t use whey any
more, and I haven’t for some time. I’ve felt
better since then too. Call me crazy; call
me blasphemous; I think whey sucks.

Udo’s argument was that if your going to take whey, atleast take it with digestive enzymes to help absorbtion, but in his opinion (and mine)whey is not recommended.In my own practice, ive noticed that it was harder to get people shredded (naturally)with high protein diets and diets high in whey protein.Fortunately i train alot of high end clients, and for them I always recommended MET-RX (which was a mixture, and as you may remember, Dr.Connelly told us 12 years ago whey on its own was not good, and I noticed these clients were doing a lot better in changing their body-composition than my lower end clients, to which I used to recommend Designer.This past year Ive taking every single client of whey protien, and if it permits, no protein powder at all.See if you have access to previous Ironmans issues (Jan-thrueMay 2002),these issues have various articles by Dharkham and Brian Batcheldor interviewing French researcher Yves Boirie, who has been studying protein for a long time.If you dont have access ill give you a breakdown on the research on casseinVSwhey, plus an udate on day 2 of swiss, we have Barry Sears in the house today, and judging by how many pencils were moving yesterday when Udo told everyone excess carbs make you fat, im anticipating Dr.Sears to start a riot.

WS: Wow…I wish that I was there too!

A question about Dr. Erasmus’s lecture. Any interesting thoughts on what he felt was a good TOTAL fat intake, Omega-3/6 ratios, and how to practically get a good mix during the day? While his book “Good Fats/Bad Fats” is great, it doesn’t really give you a good “daily routine”. (P.S. His “Udo’s Choice”, by the way, is an excellent product…so even if he “pushed” it…it’s legit…)

I’m doing some research on your question…it’s a good one!

Fat gain can be a direct result of consuming a food you’re sensitive to. Most people are sensitive to dairy products because they are consumed so frequently in our society. Body builders are especially prone to develop a sensitivity to whey, casein or milk protein. There are some individuals that do not develop this sensitivity and therefore have no noted fat gain while using whey, casein or milk protein. So, you have to be aware of how your body responds to them.

Sounds like this is a case of not respecting the opinion of a colleague.

WSTRAINER: yes! A report on Day 2 would be terrific! I appreciate the time you’re taking to provide these reports. Thank you.

As for this about whey. I'm gonna have to do some reading. We've been using Bioplex's 100% Pure Whey, and have seen nothing but gains. This is all very interesting to say the least.

Wow…That suprises me a bit because I was always under the impression that Serrano was in support of whole foods and caesin more often than not . I know he is a proponent of whey 45 min post workout. The other thing is that his affilliates sell a whey protein.This could have some effect on his reaction. Now for my opinion. As I’ve gotten older(I’m 20) I’ve noticed that I do not respond to whey nearly as well. I think anything being absorbed so quickly will have a negative effect on insulin levels. If you couple this in with the fact that when dieting, carbs are often restricted, then there is not as much effort for the whey to undergo glucogenesis thus, in turn hindering your dieting efforts. One last thing is that (especially with cheaper concentrates) allergies might be aggravated worse. This is also kind of suprising to me since Serrano is a stickler for food allergies. I would keep your whey pwo-Just my opinion…but would be happy to discuss further…Mike

Free Ex brings up a good point about whey in that he seems to have some sort’ve “reaction” to it. This is probably quite common since whey is found in dairy and something that a high % of the population has a reaction or intolerance to. It has been theorized that when one consumes foods they are intolerant to the body responds with a much larger than normal insulin release which blocks fat burning and over time could cause fat accumulation. So in this case it might not be everyone but a significant % of the population that has a negative response.

So - Dr Serrano talked “Mumbo Jumbo” while Udo had the “good oil” eh…? What exactly did Dr Serrano say, and how was he “rude”…?

In my experience, whey has done nothing for HARD-TRAINING, DEDICATED people but give them tangible results, with no obvious side effects.

packs up bags and leaves…WITHOUT losing argument.

Kelly and all: I’m missing something here…are we talking about whey being a problem in general OR in just certain individuals?

If we’re talking about the latter, this all makes sense. In other words, being dairy based, I can see why it would be a problem for some…

Yes, I think Charlene and Kelly are correct
in that it depends on whether or not a person
is sensitive to dairy and whey. Some people
are not, but many are.

Personally I am sensitive to both casein and whey; though for me, whey is much worse. Strangely, I have no trouble tolerating lactose. I went to the trouble of tracking down powdered lactose (without fat or protein) and I was able to consume a lot of that without any advserse reaction. I mention this because people often say things like "any adverse reaction you have to whey or casein is from the lactose." But for me this is absoulutely not the case. And I suspect not the case for many others as well. In such cases I think there is some type of immune reaction to the dairy proteins going on, but I don't know the details yet.

in my book theres nothin wrong with a little friendly debate… keep us posted

Didnt get specific about ratios but spoke about his “oil blend”.For athletic purposes take 1 tbsp for every 50 lbs of bdwt.He did say an improper ratio of omega 3’s to 6 has been linked to breast and prostate cancer, so i asked if this has anything to do with estrogen elevation and he said he beleives so but he’ll know within a year or two,but my theory is an elevated omega 6 probably causes less linoleic acid to be converted to GLA, thus this will cause more aramatase and 5 alpha reductase activity.Told us that research shows that EFA’s lower testosterone, but performance always improves, so he beleives the recepters become more responsive so the body makes less test (make less because less works more).And extra virgin olive oil is not the same as it is in europe.

No seriously, he did lose the argument, only losers walk away with no ovation. Anyways, Udo was such a gentleman that the symposium is over at 6.30pm, but he stayed just pass 7 answering any question on health related topics. Let me tell you how stubborn some can be, at SWIS 2during Serrannos lecture i asked what he thought about combining foods to manipulate the glycemic index of the meal, he said that b.s and that it doesnt work and that he trains so and so so he should know. Also at SWIS 2, i asked dr. DiPasquale what he though of prohormones, he tried answering the question with androstenedione, and i told him no, androstenediol in Androsol, and he answred that it didnt work, so i unbuttoned my shirt and told him im up 8 lbs in under 3 weeks with no visible lose of definition, and he explained that it was a placebo effect. The reason i bring this up is just before Serrano got K.O’d and left, Udo told the crowd that unlike others in the audience (hint/hint)he does not make money off whey protein thus it makes no difference to him and the only people that stick up for whey are the people that sell it.