T Nation

SERMs & Non-Aromatizers


#1

Gents I have been reading my A** off and I am confused about 1 thing, well more than 1 but lets crawl before we pole vault: If one uses a non-aromatizer such as Winny then what does one do for PCT? I have read all of B Roberts articles over at Meso and he implies that one uses SERMs as PCT even for non-aromatizers, although in one article he said SERMs are of no use with these drugs.

Now the latter makes sense to me becuase SERMs antagonize estrogen ( in the tissues that we are interested in) and if one is not aromatizing then I assume one is not elevating estrogen therefore what is the point of SERMs as PCT after cycling on non-aromatizers like Winny? Makes no sense to me and I think I am mis-reading or he mispoke. Appreciate some informed wisdom here.


#2

After your cycle, natural test levels will be very low so the estrogen to test ratio will be way off. The SERM is used to block the effects of the high estrogen until your natural test levels come back up.


#3

Thats what Im talkin bout! Some knowledge at last. So if the T/E ratio is what we are manipulating then does it make sense to take the SERM during a cycle of a non-aromatizer?


#4

No, there is no need to use a SERM during a cycle. The only exception that I know of is Anadrol which doesn't aromatize but somehow still results in higher estrogen levels. For drugs that do aromatize, an AI is really a better choice for use during the cycle and a SERM for PCT.


#5

Anadrol is likely progestogenic. So while it doesnt aromatize it still causes gyno. The evidence of this is that AIs dont dont prevent Anadrol from causing nipple soreness or gyno but winny, which is anti-progestogenic, does. This from the Anabolic Guru B Rob.

So I doubt that the SERMs would be of much use with Anadrol.

Nevertheless I appreciate your help.


#6

On the contrary, A serm used on cycle with Anadrol will fight estrogenic side effects. But an AI will not. A SERM will block the receptors from the higher estrogen regardless of what caused the higher estrogen level.


#7

yeah...I found this an interesting thread as well.

I would have thought that an AI would be a good fit with drol...the logic test makes sense in using SERMs...huh...I might have to try it...


#8

I am afraid I mispoke when i said the evidence that Anadrol was progestogenic and not estrogenic is that AIs do not stop Anadrol induced gyno but Winny does. It was Serms, not AIs that B. Rob mentioned. Ais would have no impact on Anadrol since it doesn't aromatize. SERMs have no impact for the same reason. So where is the gyno coming from? It is likely progestogenic. Here is Robert's explanation of Anadrol induces gyno:

"I suspect, though without evidence for or against it in the scientific literature, that oxymetholone is progestogenic. It has been observed to cause nipple soreness or to aggravate gynecomastia even in the presence of high dose antiestrogens, strongly suggesting that the effect is not estrogenic. Furthermore, that effect can be avoided by concurrent use of stanozolol, which is anti-progestogenic.......

Anadrol? does not convert to estrogen, or at least there is absolutely no evidence and absolutely no plausible mechanism, and thus antiestrogens are not required if no aromatizable AAS are being used. However, in concert with drugs such as testosterone, Anadrol? is notorious for worsening "estrogenic" symptoms, possibly by producing progestogenic symptoms which the bodybuilder confuses as estrogenic, or by altering estrogen metabolism, or by upregulating aromatase."

Anadrol does not sound too appetizing unless you stack it with Winny.


#9

Actually, it seems that his emphasis is more on avoiding all estrogenics (like test) than it is on including an anti-progestogenic (like Winny) alongside the Anadrol.

So any class I that doesn't aromatize fits the bill. And it sounds like Bill Roberts recommends a tren/drol stack above all others.