T Nation

SERM vs HCG on Cycle - KSman


#1

I don't remember where you explained SERM vs HCG on cycle to prevent testicular shutdown. Could you or someone point me in the right direction or maybe even copy and paste here so we can get a discussion going? Thanks! And I will keep looking too!

So just to add what I am most interested in, the dosage was something like 10mg of Nolva ED or 20mg EOD? I am shutdown because I have been cruising for a few months now, would Nolva be able to restart or does the SERM therapy only work if you start it while not shutdown? Also, if I rememeber correctly there was something HCG does that the SERM doesn't? Oh and one more, is it a viable strategy long term?


#2

Good thread.


#3

I’m in for this too. Interesting stuff


#4

You are probably recalling this link:

Read the above.

The premise is not shutting down the testes and trying to restart them later.

When you take hCG, you are stimulating the testes. You can take hCG during a cycle to keep the testes from shutting down.

When you take a SERM, the hypothalamus and pituitary are in the game and LH and FSH are released which keeps the testes in the game.

So a cycle can be all low dose SERM then PCT consists of washing out T then slowly tapering the SERM, taking AI throughout and cruising on 0.5mg anastrozole per week.

Or take hCG during a cycle, then towards the end, switch to SERM to get the top of the HPTA active.

I am not advocating doing these things long term. We do have some TRT guys [younger] who to hCG monotherapy which is only good enough if testes are in good shape. And a few doing SERM only. A life time of SERM does not make sense. However, low dose hCG is a human hormone and its is safe.

Legal:
hCG is hard to get and otherwise can be costly, SERMs are cheap and readily available.
hCG is not a Federal Schedule III drug. SERMs are not Schedule III drugs.

Side effects:
We know from TRT guys that Clomid can make some feel horrible, depressed and whacked libido. Nolvadex does not have those effects. Otherwise the two seem to do the same job and have similar dosing. If Clomid has worked for you, no problem.
Published side effects are for mostly older postmenopausal women, often taking higher doses than you will. The published side effects can be mostly ignored if you do not take high doses. And you will also not be taking chemotherapy drugs or doing radiation therapy that affect published side effects.
However some States have legislation making hCG a Schedule III drug.


Can You Kickstart A PCT With T + SERM?
#5

KSman I’m not a fan of adex, what would you recommend as a dosage for aromasin between PCT and future cycles?

Thank you


#6

Very few have any direct side effects from Anastrozole. But if the dose is too much and E2 crashes, that sucks. Some are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th the expected dose. Often lab work is required to get TRT guys E2 balanced.

I understand the dose-response of anastrozole as a competitive drug and how much may be needed VS T doses and levels.

Not sure about that for aromasin. You can try 25mg/EOD. Some need less than others. You will be taking a large number of mg’s VS anastrozole. So in that regard it is less effective than its hype. Anastrozole is very cost effective.


#7

[quote]KSman wrote:
Very few have any direct side effects from Anastrozole. But if the dose is too much and E2 crashes, that sucks. Some are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th the expected dose. Often lab work is required to get TRT guys E2 balanced.

I understand the dose-response of anastrozole as a competitive drug and how much may be needed VS T doses and levels.

Not sure about that for aromasin. You can try 25mg/EOD. Some need less than others. You will be taking a large number of mg’s VS anastrozole. So in that regard it is less effective than its hype. Anastrozole is very cost effective.[/quote]

thanks for the reply, it’s more the effect adex has on lipids that worries me about long term use. I’m probably worrying about nothing considering how low a dose I’d be using but I figure if you’re living this lifestyle might at least try and minimise the damage.

I was thinking 12.5mg/day for the aromasin so we’re pretty much on the same page here


#8

Arimidex/anastrozole does not have any direct effect on lipids.
When lipids are messed up its from taking E2 very low and the stupidity that lead to that.


#9

my whole life’s been a lie. People have been telling me for years that adex messes with lipids. Serves me right for listening to bro’s and not just researching myself

Think I’ll stick with aromasin anyway, there’s lots of cool things about it I like.


#10

I realize this is a dumb question, but I need to ask. What is the problem with taking a SERM long term versus hCG?


#11

Long TERM SERM VS hCG:

hCG is a human hormone and is safe. hCG and LH both have to lobes in their structures. The active lobe of LH is identical to one of the lobes of hCG. An interesting side fact is the the half life of LH is very short while the half life of hCG is usefully long. Perhaps that allows high hCG levels during pregnancy. Think of hCG as long half life LH.

SERM’s are not natural in the body and can have unnatural [side] effects. The impact of these with long term use is not understood and probably will never be. We know that Clomid makes some feel horrible, but others not at all. And Nolvadex has some side effects with high doses when used for breast cancer. But low doses of Nolvadex are probably fine. SERM’s induce the hypothalamus and pituitary to create LH and FSH.

With both of these, you do not want large doses as over stimulation of LH receptors in the testes can have these negative effects:

  • high LH or hCG can desensitize the testes; who needs some acquired primary hypogonadism? Not good for recovery.
  • high LH or hCG can lead to very high T–>E2 inside the testes, serum E2 gets high and anastrozole cannot control that.