SERM and AI Sticky

Someone please explain to me how tamoxifen interacts negatively with arimidex.
The original post indicates Nolva will reduce arimidex…but how?

I’ve posted today about how effective the SERM + AI protocol has worked with “low T” associates of mine, but they used only Clomid and arimidex. With all the good info regarding tamoxifen, I would have concluded a stack to “try” would be tamoxifen + arimidex, again for the purpose of elevating T for those with low natural T.

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\OP said:
“”"
Nolva: Usually dosed from 10-100 mgs, Nolva is best dosed at 20-40 mgs. It has a certain affinity for binding to breast tissue receptors that Clomid doesn’t. It can significantly raise Testosterone levels.

However, it can reduce IGF-1 levels. It is commonly said that Nolva can accomplish at 20 mgs what Clomid can at 150mgs. Something to keep in mind. Nolva does not decrease the bodies LH response to LHRH like Clomid can. It can reduce the blood levels of Arimidex and Letro rendering them less effective. It does not affect Aromasin.
“”"

For this to happen, Nolvadex would have to increase the clearance of these AIs from serum.

You can find:
“”"
Tamoxifen

Co-administration of anastrozole and tamoxifen in breast cancer patients reduced anastrozole plasma concentration by 27%. However, the coadministration of anastrozole and tamoxifen did not affect the pharmacokinetics of tamoxifen or N-desmethyltamoxifen.

At a median follow-up of 33 months, the combination of ARIMIDEX and tamoxifen did not demonstrate any efficacy benefit when compared with tamoxifen in all patients as well as in the hormone receptor-positive subpopulation. This treatment arm was discontinued from the trial. [see Clinical Studies]. Based on clinical and pharmacokinetic results from the ATAC trial, tamoxifen should not be administered with anastrozole.
“”"

and
“”"
Metabolism

Metabolism of anastrozole occurs by N-dealkylation, hydroxylation and glucuronidation. Three metabolites of anastrozole (triazole, a glucuronide conjugate of hydroxy-anastrozole, and a glucuronide conjugate of anastrozole itself) have been identified in human plasma and urine. The major circulating metabolite of anastrozole, triazole, lacks pharmacologic activity.

Anastrozole inhibited reactions catalyzed by cytochrome P450 1A2, 2C8/9, and 3A4 in vitro with Ki values which were approximately 30 times higher than the mean steady-state Cmax values observed following a 1 mg daily dose.

Anastrozole had no inhibitory effect on reactions catalyzed by cytochrome P450 2A6 or 2D6 in vitro. Administration of a single 30 mg/kg or multiple 10 mg/kg doses of anastrozole to healthy subjects had no effect on the clearance of antipyrine or urinary recovery of antipyrine metabolites.

Excretion
Eighty-five percent of radiolabeled anastrozole was recovered in feces and urine. Hepatic metabolism accounts for approximately 85% of anastrozole elimination. Renal elimination accounts for approximately 10% of total clearance. The mean elimination half-life of anastrozole is 50 hours.
“”"

So, in women who are taking 1mg anastozole â?¦per day driving E2 levels down by 80%, co-administration of nolvadex must be increasing losses of anastrozole via excretion. This probably involves changes to liver function.

The effects of nolvadex on serum E2 levels of males using low dose anastrozole may very well not be as strong as the effects with higher dose anastrozole on females that are pushing their higher E2 levels down by around 80%. These effects may be quite different with male E2 modulation. BB guys who are pushing E2 way low will probably have similar effects.

In any case, even if nolvadex did reduce anastrozole levels by 27% in male BB or TRT settings, increasing the dose of anastrozole is always an option. In a TRT context, one should be doing serum E2 labs and making dose changes to get near E2=22pg/ml and the issue would not even be show up on the radar screen.

Outstanding post.
Thankyou for this.
In retrospect, I still think Nolva + Arimidex is still something interesting to try to contrast with Clomid + Arimidex. Again, this would be for those whose testes are functioning normally and have low test levels due to something funky happening at the hypothalamus or pituitary.

I think if one uses a SERM, they really need to use an AI as well, to combat the T to E conversion that happens when the testes start pumping out more T.

[quote]KSman wrote:
\OP said:
“”"
Nolva: Usually dosed from 10-100 mgs, Nolva is best dosed at 20-40 mgs. It has a certain affinity for binding to breast tissue receptors that Clomid doesn’t. It can significantly raise Testosterone levels.

However, it can reduce IGF-1 levels. It is commonly said that Nolva can accomplish at 20 mgs what Clomid can at 150mgs. Something to keep in mind. Nolva does not decrease the bodies LH response to LHRH like Clomid can. It can reduce the blood levels of Arimidex and Letro rendering them less effective. It does not affect Aromasin.
“”"

For this to happen, Nolvadex would have to increase the clearance of these AIs from serum.

You can find:
“”"
Tamoxifen

Co-administration of anastrozole and tamoxifen in breast cancer patients reduced anastrozole plasma concentration by 27%. However, the coadministration of anastrozole and tamoxifen did not affect the pharmacokinetics of tamoxifen or N-desmethyltamoxifen.

At a median follow-up of 33 months, the combination of ARIMIDEX and tamoxifen did not demonstrate any efficacy benefit when compared with tamoxifen in all patients as well as in the hormone receptor-positive subpopulation. This treatment arm was discontinued from the trial. [see Clinical Studies]. Based on clinical and pharmacokinetic results from the ATAC trial, tamoxifen should not be administered with anastrozole.
“”"

and
“”"
Metabolism

Metabolism of anastrozole occurs by N-dealkylation, hydroxylation and glucuronidation. Three metabolites of anastrozole (triazole, a glucuronide conjugate of hydroxy-anastrozole, and a glucuronide conjugate of anastrozole itself) have been identified in human plasma and urine. The major circulating metabolite of anastrozole, triazole, lacks pharmacologic activity.

Anastrozole inhibited reactions catalyzed by cytochrome P450 1A2, 2C8/9, and 3A4 in vitro with Ki values which were approximately 30 times higher than the mean steady-state Cmax values observed following a 1 mg daily dose.

Anastrozole had no inhibitory effect on reactions catalyzed by cytochrome P450 2A6 or 2D6 in vitro. Administration of a single 30 mg/kg or multiple 10 mg/kg doses of anastrozole to healthy subjects had no effect on the clearance of antipyrine or urinary recovery of antipyrine metabolites.

Excretion
Eighty-five percent of radiolabeled anastrozole was recovered in feces and urine. Hepatic metabolism accounts for approximately 85% of anastrozole elimination. Renal elimination accounts for approximately 10% of total clearance. The mean elimination half-life of anastrozole is 50 hours.
“”"

So, in women who are taking 1mg anastozole â?¦per day driving E2 levels down by 80%, co-administration of nolvadex must be increasing losses of anastrozole via excretion. This probably involves changes to liver function.

The effects of nolvadex on serum E2 levels of males using low dose anastrozole may very well not be as strong as the effects with higher dose anastrozole on females that are pushing their higher E2 levels down by around 80%. These effects may be quite different with male E2 modulation. BB guys who are pushing E2 way low will probably have similar effects.

In any case, even if nolvadex did reduce anastrozole levels by 27% in male BB or TRT settings, increasing the dose of anastrozole is always an option. In a TRT context, one should be doing serum E2 labs and making dose changes to get near E2=22pg/ml and the issue would not even be show up on the radar screen. [/quote]

after reading this post i have just one question. please dont be too harsh on me if the answer is common knowledge for the vets. is there a benefit from stacking clomid and nolva? i mean it sounds like together these would be a great benifit because what one lacks the other picks up. im just trying to get everything figured out b4 i get geared and mess up somewhere. thank you

[quote]newpumper wrote:
after reading this post i have just one question. please dont be too harsh on me if the answer is common knowledge for the vets. is there a benefit from stacking clomid and nolva? i mean it sounds like together these would be a great benifit because what one lacks the other picks up. im just trying to get everything figured out b4 i get geared and mess up somewhere. thank you[/quote]

What does one lack? Be more specific please

well, the OP stated that Nolva has a certain affinity for binding to breast tissue receptors that Clomid doesn’t. he goes on to say that Nolva does not decrease the bodies LH response to LHRH like Clomid can. like i said i could just be misunderstanding but thats the purpose of the question, just to make sure i have it right and also to find out if its even possible or worth stacking the two. thank you

Edit:NVM

Got a couple of questions regarding Tamoxifen:

I’m going to be running it as part of PCT coming off of a 4 week Epi cycle. I’ll dose it 40/30/20/10 i.e - Week 1 will be 40mg a day, then 30mg for week 2, 20mg for week 3 and 10mg for week 4.

I know that it is best to take it at the same time every day, but do you take the whole dose aall at once?

I have Tamoxifen 10mg (as citrate) tabs, so i’d take 4 to get my 40mg, would it be ok to just take all 4 at once after breakfast?

So I ran Test e weeks 1-9 at 500mg/5 days
I ran var weeks 4-11 at 50mg/day.
I threw in adex at 0.25mg EOD only week 6 when i noticed a little extra water retention.

I started at 157 lbs, 8.7 or so % BF. I’m now at 174 lbs, 7% BF. Great Gains, Great strength. Feel awesome.

Today was my first day of PCT.

This morning I started at 40mg Nolvadex. About 5 hours later I noticed sensitive nipples, also puffy and my right and left one had small hard lumps I could feel when I rubbed them. Not only that, but when I barely even squeezed my nipple, I was lactating from like 4 different spots immediately (its the same on both pecs).

I’m freakin out. From my research its definitely prolactin induced gyno. Now I’m thinking maybe the Test or the Var were different than I expected even though I had good results. It has to be prolactin from everything I’ve read.

WHAT DO I DO? How do I finish out PCT? I ordered some pramipoxene (spellling?) because I couldnt afford the dostinex.

But anyways, do I keep going with the 4 weeks of nolva? I have chlomid, and arimidex on hand too. I keep reading that nolva makes prolactin gyno even worse.

WTF man I need advice seriously everything was awesome, I look and feel like a beast and my strength went through the roof. I thought I reacted so well to everything, now all of a sudden this happens?

Fellow iron brothers,

  1. Which is really the safest, works great & best bet for on -cycle ancillaries?

a. nolva at 20-40mg/day ?
b. adex at 0.5-1mg/day ?
c. or combination of both nolva & adex?

  1. Which is really the safest, works great & best bet for PCT? (with no rebound)

a. nolva + clomid + HCG
b. adex + clomid + HCG

Thank you in advance!

I’m 34 and have been feeling the effects of aging on my testosterone levels. I would like to get my T up a bit and back some of the mojo, energy, confidence, and recovery ability I feel I’ve lost over the last few years. I have especially been noticing the effects on my behavior and drive etc lately as I’ve been dating younger girls.

But I am not ready for HRT or AAS yet. Instead, at the moment I am interested in trying out an AI. The online pharmacy I order other medications from has generic Aromasin and Arimidex at prices I can afford. So I was thinking of giving one a trial run.

I understand Arimidex is somewhat milder and doesn’t have the small extra anabolic effect that Aromasin might. I definitely like the sound of the extra anabolic effect. But is there a good chance I might not like some sides of Aromasin that wouldn’t be a problem with Arimidex? I am talking about when taking at very low doses just to try to get the T - estrogen balance a little more like it was when I was younger.

Is there any danger of either reducing my sex drive rather than raising it? I definitely would appreciate a little boost in that department over a reduction (don’t want a reduction in sex drive but would somewhat like an increase in sex drive).

Bit Random…But i Think this Thread is VERY informational and provides Great and Useful info for first time users and also experienced users :slight_smile:

[quote]xXDevilDogXx wrote:
Hey gents, let me know what we need to add or change to make this a good sticky.[/quote]

I would be interested in more information oriented toward people who are considering using just an AI and/or SERM to boost their T and lower estrogen on a relatively steady basis. That is, using these drugs as a lower-strength but lower-side-effect alternative to HRT.

For example, I’m interested in knowing how long and regularly these drugs could be taken without causing substantial suppression/how one would want to cycle them for this kind of use without use simultaneous to AAS or as AAS PCT.

Thank you very much for the sticky, it’s immensely useful.

Hey this is my first pro hormone cycle that am running. I am running m1t at 5mg a day for 4 weeks. I ordered and recieved one package of 30 20mg tamoxifen citrate tabs, tribulus and PES erase. i was planning on doing 20/20/10/10 as my serm which i read to do on a pct guide. i have read some places that the tamox alone is enough for serm and pct when running a low dose of m1t but i am weary of this and can never be to careful. i have done the research and gotten the supplies i just want info on when to run everything. Will i immediately run the tamox, trib and erase or do i have to space them apart or what? should i start running erase at the last week of my cycle? i only need info on timing and doseage for the tamox and tribulus. any and all help and suggestions are appreciated!

im on my 5th week of 15 test e only. i am already getting gino. could i use letro oe arimidex during cycle to help with the gyno then use novi for ptc after cycle? i just dont want anything to interfer with my gains while on cycle…

Post cycle treatment? Letro or novi? And also what has everyone used for during the cycle for Gino? I’ve done research but would like to see what people have used and the pros and cons. Thank you

While on cycle how much Letro do I use for gyno? .25 daily?

I’d just like to throw in my experiences of using AI and SERMS (nolvadex and clomid) when on a cyce with a case of pre existing Gyno… I hope this will answer some peoples questions and those who have reservations about starting a cycle because of a case of pre existing Gyno.

Firstly I have only ever used Nolva, Clomid and Arimidex, I have not used Aromasin or Letro, and probably won’t, so cannot comment on them.

I was born with mild Gyno, when I did my first cycle I used nolvadex to prevent aromatization on 500mg of test, and didn’t have any problems with the gyno flaring up whatsoever, in fact the effects of the Nolvadex actually reduced the Gyno.

I once used was 800mg of test on one 12 week cycle, which I used about .5MG of adex every second or third day and had no problems either.

Another time I was using 250mg Omnadron every other day and 50mg Tren ace every other day (should have been injected every day I know) and I used research adex at around 0.5mg every second or third day and had no problems either.

Adex seemed to have no noticeable effect on gyno, unlike Nolvadex, which when taken at 20mg a day (on or off cycle) left the ‘lumps’ feeling less puffy and slightly ‘reduced’ Clomid did the same as the nolvadex.

I just wanted to share my experiences- that by following the ‘AI and SERM guidelines’ recommended here I had no problems and didn’t worsen my ‘condition’ by using aromatizing steroids accompanied by the necessary ancillaries.

guys what do you think of the many,posts,articles etc,that says you dont need AI if your taking under 1 gram of test a week ? Im on 300mg a week Ive taken adex,and not takin it,I see zero difference… ?? so should I take it?
also,I have read many mixed reviews about needing PCT after using ANAVAR,I will be adding 40-60mg a day with my 300mg of test,what would you recommend,keep in mind I have acess to adex,all I want…thanks guys.
IF this is in the wrong place,my bad