SERM and AI Sticky

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
There are those that use a low dose AI like Adex or Letro while off cycle to maintain optimal estrogen level and bolster free T. So that would be a yes to your question.[/quote]

An SERM should not be used for this.

[quote]tonymontana33 wrote:
Is taking SERMs and AIs for lowering estrogen levels similar to taking exogenous test in that it is still a net gain of testosterone? [/quote]

SERMs increase estrogen, but lower the effects of the estrogen in SELECTED tissues.

Wk1-8 Test Prp 350mg (50mg/d)
Wk1-6 Tren Ace 250mg (35m/d)
Wk1-6 Dianabol 210mg (30mg/d)

Could you please recommend a pct cycle thats relatively cheap?

Devildog, would love to hear from you

[quote]T-Beast wrote:

Wk1-8 Test Prp 350mg (50mg/d)
Wk1-6 Tren Ace 250mg (35m/d)
Wk1-6 Dianabol 210mg (30mg/d)

Could you please recommend a pct cycle thats relatively cheap?

Devildog, would love to hear from you [/quote]

Not sure I like your cycle that much.

SERM PCT is really your best option on a shorter cycle like that.

Nolva, Clomid or Torefemine standard dosing protocol.

please comment on why you do notl iek the cycle westclock

[quote]T-Beast wrote:

Wk1-8 Test Prp 350mg (50mg/d)
Wk1-6 Tren Ace 250mg (35m/d)
Wk1-6 Dianabol 210mg (30mg/d)

Could you please recommend a pct cycle thats relatively cheap?

Devildog, would love to hear from you [/quote]

Fairly common cycle. Doses seem fine. Start a new thread about it so some of the other guys can chime in too. I’ll put my recommendations there. Cool?

***EDIT - I found your other thread and responded there. ***

[quote]T-Beast wrote:
please comment on why you do notl iek the cycle westclock [/quote]

Im not a big fan of tren, I like higher doses of test, and I like it run for longer periods of time.

Theres nothing particularly wrong with it, Im just not a fan.

ok devil dog, lets talk on the other then, dont want to highjack this one.

I have been brushing up on my AI and SERM reading…

Now AI’s attack the little enzyme that turns our good buddy T into E.

SERM’s they run around finding places to hide that only E can get into. Effective blocking E’s effects on those tissues.

Now would it not stand to reason that taking an AI for PCT would be better then a SERM. The E is still going to be floating around in your system. Just cause SERM took all the of its hiding spots doesn’t mean its not there. AI would be a better choice cause it would kill all the E floating around right?

Or am I way to simplifying the whole thing? Or I just don’t get it?

[quote]dirtbag wrote:
I have been brushing up on my AI and SERM reading…

Now AI’s attack the little enzyme that turns our good buddy T into E.

SERM’s they run around finding places to hide that only E can get into. Effective blocking E’s effects on those tissues.

Now would it not stand to reason that taking an AI for PCT would be better then a SERM. The E is still going to be floating around in your system. Just cause SERM took all the of its hiding spots doesn’t mean its not there.

AI would be a better choice cause it would kill all the E floating around right?

Or am I way to simplifying the whole thing? Or I just don’t get it?
[/quote]

I think people use SERM’s for the effect they have on stimulating the HPTA. I’ll admit I don’t know nearly as much as I should regarding the mechanisms of a sucessful PCT, but it has something to do with stimulating LH production, which will get the leydig cells to start making testosterone after a period of suppression. My understanding is that there is more involved than just reducing the amount of estrogen, because not all suppressive AAS cause estrogen conversion in the first place.

There is obviously a lot more to it and I’m getting confused myself, so I’ll just stop here and let someone with a bigger brain go into the nuances.

bonez, pretty sure you summarized it well. thats how i see it too

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
I have been brushing up on my AI and SERM reading…

Now AI’s attack the little enzyme that turns our good buddy T into E.

SERM’s they run around finding places to hide that only E can get into. Effective blocking E’s effects on those tissues.

Now would it not stand to reason that taking an AI for PCT would be better then a SERM. The E is still going to be floating around in your system. Just cause SERM took all the of its hiding spots doesn’t mean its not there.

AI would be a better choice cause it would kill all the E floating around right?

Or am I way to simplifying the whole thing? Or I just don’t get it?

I think people use SERM’s for the effect they have on stimulating the HPTA. I’ll admit I don’t know nearly as much as I should regarding the mechanisms of a sucessful PCT, but it has something to do with stimulating LH production, which will get the leydig cells to start making testosterone after a period of suppression. My understanding is that there is more involved than just reducing the amount of estrogen, because not all suppressive AAS cause estrogen conversion in the first place.

There is obviously a lot more to it and I’m getting confused myself, so I’ll just stop here and let someone with a bigger brain go into the nuances. [/quote]

Would they not just wake up on there own after the body senses a drop in free T? And by using an AI you effectively manage the E already so there is really no worries for nasty sides such as gyno.

But your saying that using Nolv would kick start that sensing process. As quickly as possible is that right?

Now if a taper is used in winding down with an AI why remove the AI at all? Shouldn’t E levels be kept in check at all times till normal function is restored?

[quote]dirtbag wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
I have been brushing up on my AI and SERM reading…

Now AI’s attack the little enzyme that turns our good buddy T into E.

SERM’s they run around finding places to hide that only E can get into. Effective blocking E’s effects on those tissues.

Now would it not stand to reason that taking an AI for PCT would be better then a SERM. The E is still going to be floating around in your system. Just cause SERM took all the of its hiding spots doesn’t mean its not there.

AI would be a better choice cause it would kill all the E floating around right?

Or am I way to simplifying the whole thing? Or I just don’t get it?

I think people use SERM’s for the effect they have on stimulating the HPTA. I’ll admit I don’t know nearly as much as I should regarding the mechanisms of a sucessful PCT, but it has something to do with stimulating LH production, which will get the leydig cells to start making testosterone after a period of suppression. My understanding is that there is more involved than just reducing the amount of estrogen, because not all suppressive AAS cause estrogen conversion in the first place.

There is obviously a lot more to it and I’m getting confused myself, so I’ll just stop here and let someone with a bigger brain go into the nuances.

Would they not just wake up on there own after the body senses a drop in free T? And by using an AI you effectively manage the E already so there is really no worries for nasty sides such as gyno.

But your saying that using Nolv would kick start that sensing process. As quickly as possible is that right?

Now if a taper is used in winding down with an AI why remove the AI at all? Shouldn’t E levels be kept in check at all times till normal function is restored? [/quote]

In men with a fully capable HPTA, recovery without a SERM should eventually take place, yes. During that time the body will be in a catabolic state. Getting the HPTA back to full function as soon as possible, by using a SERM, will prevent some of the catabolism that occurs when someone goes off cycle. This is one of the reasons why shorter high dose cycles seem to yield better net gains compared to low dose long duration cycles. The shorter the amount of time the body is suppressed the easier it is to recover.

As far as the AI during the taper goes, I really have no idea. Some people use an AI at a low dose all the time, so I guess it’s not outrageous to use one during the taper. I can’t say for sure though.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
I have been brushing up on my AI and SERM reading…

Now AI’s attack the little enzyme that turns our good buddy T into E.

SERM’s they run around finding places to hide that only E can get into. Effective blocking E’s effects on those tissues.

Now would it not stand to reason that taking an AI for PCT would be better then a SERM. The E is still going to be floating around in your system. Just cause SERM took all the of its hiding spots doesn’t mean its not there.

AI would be a better choice cause it would kill all the E floating around right?

Or am I way to simplifying the whole thing? Or I just don’t get it?

I think people use SERM’s for the effect they have on stimulating the HPTA. I’ll admit I don’t know nearly as much as I should regarding the mechanisms of a sucessful PCT, but it has something to do with stimulating LH production, which will get the leydig cells to start making testosterone after a period of suppression. My understanding is that there is more involved than just reducing the amount of estrogen, because not all suppressive AAS cause estrogen conversion in the first place.

There is obviously a lot more to it and I’m getting confused myself, so I’ll just stop here and let someone with a bigger brain go into the nuances.

Would they not just wake up on there own after the body senses a drop in free T? And by using an AI you effectively manage the E already so there is really no worries for nasty sides such as gyno.

But your saying that using Nolv would kick start that sensing process. As quickly as possible is that right?

Now if a taper is used in winding down with an AI why remove the AI at all? Shouldn’t E levels be kept in check at all times till normal function is restored?

In men with a fully capable HPTA, recovery without a SERM should eventually take place, yes. During that time the body will be in a catabolic state. Getting the HPTA back to full function as soon as possible, by using a SERM, will prevent some of the catabolism that occurs when someone goes off cycle. This is one of the reasons why shorter high dose cycles seem to yield better net gains compared to low dose long duration cycles. The shorter the amount of time the body is suppressed the easier it is to recover.

As far as the AI during the taper goes, I really have no idea. Some people use an AI at a low dose all the time, so I guess it’s not outrageous to use one during the taper. I can’t say for sure though. [/quote]

Thanks for clearing it up. Sorry to dumb it down but its the only way for sure I know I understand things is to break it right down.

SERM = good helps restore good HPTA action fast and prevents estrogen from having effects on certain tissues. Along with an effect of anti-catabolism agent due to the quicker restoration of HPTA functions in the body.

But what if your prescribed AI. You have to take it to keep your own normal levels in check. Do your keep taking it during PCT?

What about precycle therapy.

bonez. or anyone for that matter. what can you do precycle to make the cycle more effective hormone wise.

[quote]T-Beast wrote:
What about precycle therapy.

bonez. or anyone for that matter. what can you do precycle to make the cycle more effective hormone wise. [/quote]

Eat a lot.

EDIT
I don’t think there is an answer to that question that falls under the category of this thread. Keep the stickied threads on topic.

I don’t actually do anything out of the ordinary in preparation for a cycle.

ok, because an old friend of mine used to say to get your body ready otc test boosters do good.

What is the recommended protocol for Nolva for pct.
30ml @ 25mg/ml of nolva is enough for the pct?

how does dosing clomifane citrate (liquid) differ from nolvadex? i have both but just for future reference id like to know. i think im going to use the nolva first though.

You use about 4x as much clomid as you do nolvadex, milligram wise.

It wouldn’t kill you to read the thread.