Serge Nubret Pump Training

@everyone: This has been a fantastic thread. I hope it keeps rolling along!! Thanks!!

I think it’s probably been about 5 years since I posted last, but this thread is pretty inspirational and got me doing some extra homework on Serge’s training methods (as well as others who followed a similar philosophy).

@Matu: Are you using two different Hammer Strength machines? (PM sent as well).

I have been thinking about trying out the Hammer Strength Chest Press as an option for a sometimes troublesome shoulder of mine.

[quote]BHappy wrote:
StrengthSeeker, i just figured out lately. If i am right OP can mean the Original Poster or the Original Post. I meant the Original Post, so you can read it at the top of the first page. I guess many use abbreviations to keep the amount of pages at a reasonable level, like i try to use links to avoid using too much space. It was obvious you come from a totally different frame of mind. I did too. Luckily we can reach our goals faster by helping each other.
[/quote]

Yep OP is universally known as original post or poster. I have been a forum moderator / admin for 6 years on a military based website.( I am not in the military, just used to do simulation games with members for their training. )

Thank you very much for this thread, I never thought it would have got this huge of a response. Even though I know the principles are sound they are off the beaten path.

My next article should be published later this week or next week.

@StrengthSeeker: my strength levels are comparable to yours, and I’m making very nice progress on this, I have put on weight and my arms and forearms for instance look noticeably bigger (got comments!) I’m doing it exactly as written, just with lightly less volume for now. I figure, as long as I can increase the weights over time (which I do when 6 x 12 is easy), then I’m still getting stronger.
I do miss the deadlifts, though. Would it be alright to do them once a month?

Don’t know if this has been mentioned before but, what is French press. I’ve researched a little about it, and most people seem to think it’s a skull crusher like exercise for your triceps. Yet I have a quote here from Serge who says it’s like a BTNP. “Every muscle group has one prior exercice : For chest is bench press - for shoulders is french press - for back is chines - for quadricep is squat.”

Anyone shed some light on this? Reason I’m bringing this up is, I want to switch tricep dips for something else. Don’t really like the exercise, find that the pump isn’t that great off them and they hit your shoulders a bit too.

What Is a French Press Exercise?

Ulterior, obviously Serge knowledge is vast but his english is not as accurate as french his mother tongue.

I just googled “exercise french press” there is a ton to read. I copied this from the top

"By Kent Ninomiya, eHow Contributor

The French press exercise is a weight lifting technique that builds the tricep muscles. This is the muscle group located on the back of your upper arms. The French press exercise involves holding weights in both hands and bending your arms at the elbow. Straightening your arms with the weights providing resistance, works the tricep muscles. The French press exercise is also called “skull crushers” since that is what would happen if you drop the weight while performing them.

Other People Are Reading

Read more: What Is a French Press Exercise? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4672397_what-french-press-exercise.html#ixzz2ADx1SIuc"

[quote]BHappy wrote:
What Is a French Press Exercise?
[/quote]
standard curl bar. Stand. press weight overhead. Bend elbows, do not move upper arm.

Just like jp dubya said

The french press is a standing overhead tricep extension performed with a dumbbell(s), ez curl bar, straight bar, or cable. It places more emphasize on the long head of the tricep because it is performed overhead which can give you that “hang” in a bicep shot.

If you are wondering why it emphasizes the londg head over the other two it is because of the origins and insertions of the 3 heads. The long head is actually placed in a semi stretched position when you raise your arm overhead thus making it the most used of the 3.

@Bradley,thanks for the article i have been working out like this since then and it’s going great! One question though,in Serge nubrets dvd it says one should use half reps although i read this on another forum. Did he use half reps or partial reps for all exercises or which ones?

[quote]minsarale wrote:
@Bradley,thanks for the article i have been working out like this since then and it’s going great! One question though,in Serge nubrets dvd it says one should use half reps although i read this on another forum. Did he use half reps or partial reps for all exercises or which ones?[/quote]

I saw parts of that DVD too . He did use more limited rep ranges on some movements but not every one ( look at his squats , most shoulder and back movements ) . But it isn’t something so huge that it makes or breaks a program and he didnt akways teach half reps online, probably because of fear of over complication. He always tweaked exercises slightly to fit HIM but recommend you do the same.

minsarale, as we get older we learn to read between the lines. I was just on the phone with my 57 years old brother and he told me i told him stuff that never came out of my mouth even if they were in my mind. I think Serge focussed on sharing about 4-5 main principles like Bradley said it is important to keep things simple to transmit your experience/knowledge to a large audience.

Most of us can probably benefit from some 1 on 1 coaching where more precisions can be transmitted. I know i could. I learned first from borrowing books from some librairies and i made mistakes. Now i ask questions here and it allows me to learn more. I use partials or other techniques to adjust when my weight selection is not optimal. Also the more i learn the more i understand that full range of motion is a grey expression. There is a joint potential range of motion big for someone flexible like me, less for others. When focussing on muscles the range of motion called full is often smaller.

Edit: below is a copy from a post worth probably many books it was recently posted by bwhitwell

" “If I could go back 30 yrs ago with what I know now” I have trained consistently for 30+ years. I would have trained a lot differently than I did.

I would:

  1. I would follow Wendlers 531. Understanding that there is a philosophy that you can be strong enough and
    pushing it will not help your growth, but get you hurt.
  2. Assistance movements
    a. Always controlled.
    b. Always go for the “feel”.
    c. Use higher reps 10-15.
    d. Short rest periods.
    e. Never train to failure.
  3. Start shoulder rehab movements “shoulder horn,broomstick stretches, YTWL” before I needed them.
  4. Always do more rows than I think I need.
  5. Do not do movements that compromise my joints in any way, like guillotine press, Behing the neck" ____".
  6. No the difference between DOMS and injury.
  7. Never ignore “nagging” pains, they will turn into a chronic injury that WILL limit your training.
  8. Read and educate yourself, sources should be credible,ex. T-Nation authors. "

the subject was: So How Does Your Body Really Feel?

[quote]BHappy wrote:
minsarale, as we get older we learn to read between the lines. I was just on the phone with my 57 years old brother and he told me i told him stuff that never came out of my mouth even if they were in my mind. I think Serge focussed on sharing about 4-5 main principles like Bradley said it is important to keep things simple to transmit your experience/knowledge to a large audience.
Most of us can probably benefit from some 1 on 1 coaching where more precisions can be transmitted. I know i could. I learned first from borrowing books from some librairies and i made mistakes. Now i ask questions here and it allows me to learn more. I use partials or other techniques to adjust when my weight selection is not optimal. Also the more i learn the more i understand that full range of motion is a grey expression. There is a joint potential range of motion big for someone flexible like me, less for others. When focussing on muscles the range of motion called full is often smaller.

Edit: below is a copy from a post worth probably many books it was recently posted by bwhitwell

" “If I could go back 30 yrs ago with what I know now” I have trained consistently for 30+ years. I would have trained a lot differently than I did.

I would:

  1. I would follow Wendlers 531. Understanding that there is a philosophy that you can be strong enough and
    pushing it will not help your growth, but get you hurt.
  2. Assistance movements
    a. Always controlled.
    b. Always go for the “feel”.
    c. Use higher reps 10-15.
    d. Short rest periods.
    e. Never train to failure.
  3. Start shoulder rehab movements “shoulder horn,broomstick stretches, YTWL” before I needed them.
  4. Always do more rows than I think I need.
  5. Do not do movements that compromise my joints in any way, like guillotine press, Behing the neck" ____".
  6. No the difference between DOMS and injury.
  7. Never ignore “nagging” pains, they will turn into a chronic injury that WILL limit your training.
  8. Read and educate yourself, sources should be credible,ex. T-Nation authors. "

the subject was: So How Does Your Body Really Feel?[/quote]

Bear in mind that someimes a reduced ROM results in a harder, more specific exercise, not an easier one. examples non lock squats where the lack of a lockout (effective muscle deload) results in a more constant tension on the muscle. Same can be said for non lock Bench Press work with the muecle ephasis tranisitioning from chest/front delt to triceps as the weight is raised. By cutting ROM short at the top, keeps the pressure on the chest.

I think that the most important aspect is consistency of ROM from workout to wworkout i.e 6x12 x50kg full ROM curl can’t be easily compared to 6X12 X50Kg half curl. Minimise all the variables and you know that weight added to the bar is progress.

Gazz

You know what is drawing me to this training? I am getting older, 1. 2nd, I don’t do a whole lot of other physical work.
I may tweak it to ease into higher volume levels.
Let me ask this, however. Without really going too heavy, why not do maybe two sets of 1 heavy move for low reps? Simple stuff. Just major multijoint lifts.

Initially, 2 sets of 3-5 with 1 or two reps left in the tank. Then the volume. I know this is not the program, but My Greatest Gains Ever: Dave Tate
Telling the truth, my work capacity sucks. Using a heavier few sets at a perceived level of 8 or so wakes me up.
Lower body kills. I so badly need more volume because I just can’t do the volume of work…YET.

jp_dubya,

10 days ago Gazz posted what he does(page 15) and i started to use his reps rotation.
From his post:

“Rep cycling: I rotate 3 rep schemes, 6X12, 6X10, 6X8, then take a few days off and beign again at 6X12 etc.”

I usually do 1 set each minute. My small muscles are ready for more work real soon so i do upper/lower split kind of a version from the link you included in your post but less days off. Each week i do 12 reps, 10 reps, 8 reps, off. On 8 reps i am about 15 sec. work/45 sec. rest wich match the 3-1 ratio from your link. Instead of doing 3 sets of 30 sec TUT i do 6 sets of 15. I do generally 6-7 exercises plus abs at home, again close to the link you posted.

If it is legal in your state you can do it(LOL).
In 3 months i will move further from the gym i go to so i will try to increase my work capacity in a gym visit since 2 daily visits will be less likely(now about 60% of the time).
On 12 reps day i do leg press 30 reps. 25, 20, 15, 12, 12(my machine has a stack so i can increase load in 2 sec.)

Thanks again Gazz, i really enjoy your system.
PS. This is my template, if i know i will be a few days without training, i will go heavier, it is just joggling with our recuperation capacity, like if a knee is painfull i do less sets to be able to keep on training.

On the subject of lower reps/higher reps, yesterday i read a post from The Mighty Stu

"To OVERsimplify things, forgetting exercise ordering and rep performance variables (we can save that discussion for another thread -lol), you have the options creating muscle damage as described in most basic texts (sliding filament theory) AND you have the option of creating cumulative muscular fatigue and a hormonal effect.

Working with heavy weights, pushing for strength gains, performing proper repetitions, will create muscle damage through structural mechanisms (this is usually understood by even the most beginner level trainers).

Working with moderate weights, creating more of a pump, with shorter rest intervals, and allowing fatigue of muscles to build up over a larger volume of work (I’ve shifted to this approach myself in recent years to spare my joints a bit) will stimulate muscle growth through the stress of fatigue combined with the hormonal stimulus of an anabolic environment (growth hormone).

Ideally, a smart trainer will make use of both methods in their programming, but realizing that you don’t always need to add more weight is a huge step in continuing to make hypertrophy gains beyond a certain point.

S "

We can read his post from(october 13, 9:56)
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/2011_updates?id=4327277&pageNo=43

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
You know what is drawing me to this training? I am getting older, 1. 2nd, I don’t do a whole lot of other physical work.
I may tweak it to ease into higher volume levels.
Let me ask this, however. Without really going too heavy, why not do maybe two sets of 1 heavy move for low reps? Simple stuff. Just major multijoint lifts.

Initially, 2 sets of 3-5 with 1 or two reps left in the tank. Then the volume. I know this is not the program, but My Greatest Gains Ever: Dave Tate
Telling the truth, my work capacity sucks. Using a heavier few sets at a perceived level of 8 or so wakes me up.
Lower body kills. I so badly need more volume because I just can’t do the volume of work…YET.[/quote]

I’m considering adding in a heavy day after a few cycles of this style of training. Something like ABCAB,CABCHeavy (I workout M-F) so every other Friday would be a heavy day.

I’m feeling the need to incorporate some heavier, low-volume deadlifts and squats if for no other reason than I just don’t seem to get general aches and pains when I lift heavy (provided I use good form, of course). It seems I’m getting some dull aches in my shoulders and feel general “tweaks” in my neck and back since starting this.

Hey all.

I wrote a longish post about my experience on this program, lessons learned, etc… that unfortunatly got lost to the interwebs.

For now i will say i made some nice progress in some areas (arms specifically) but have to quit the program because of chronic naggin pain in shoulders generated by behind neck pressing and pulling (extremely light no less).

will get back later with my 3 week results. (i know 3 weeks is nothing to judge a program on but my shoulders just can’t take it anymore).

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
Hey all.

I wrote a longish post about my experience on this program, lessons learned, etc… that unfortunatly got lost to the interwebs.

For now i will say i made some nice progress in some areas (arms specifically) but have to quit the program because of chronic naggin pain in shoulders generated by behind neck pressing and pulling (extremely light no less).

will get back later with my 3 week results. (i know 3 weeks is nothing to judge a program on but my shoulders just can’t take it anymore). [/quote]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder issues, however at least you discovered a new approach to arm training that works for you. If a exercise like BTNSP causes you pain immediately adapt it fit you , by either modifying the range of motion , grip or just swapping it for presses in the front. We are trying to improve our body not cause damage.

On that note, I used to have a lot of shoulder pain but I just figured it came with the territory of benching 350 pounds and ignored it for a while. I was wrong, in the end all I had to do to alleviate the issue was strengthen my rotator cuffs( Poliquin has a excellent article on this). Since I took the time to get them up to par , my shoulders have never had a hint of pain again.

BTNSP also places a lot of stress on the rotator cuff( it involves more external rotation) and if they are weaker then they should be compared tothe surrounding muscles you are setting yourself up for pain.

this is definitely the best program for me. moderate intesity and high volume! been doing this for almost 3 years now!

Just a quick update on how I’m going with this program. I’m 6 and half weeks into it, gained around 4.5 pounds, waist went up slightly though. I’ve hit that overtraining wall again, and am having to take 3 workouts off this week to recover. I thought the idea was that we wouldn’t need to deload on a program such as this, as we aren’t going to failure etc. I mean I don’t think I was going to failure, I tried to leave a couple reps in the tank, but at the same time the last 2 sets are fairly difficult.

Right now I’m doing 5 and 4 sets, as oppossed to 8 and 6, I started at half volume which was 4 and 3, I wonder have I increased this too quickly and that has led to me not recovering well enough, or if I prematureley upped the weights, I could post up some workout logs to check that out.

So yeah, I don’t know what I’m gonna do for this next block, maybe I just need a deload period after 5-6 weeks of this or I alter what I’m doing in the workouts, any suggestions?

Only 1 suggestion comes to my mind. Be smart.
I am 55 with modest goals so this morning i had 2 visits to the gym planned when i was allmost out from my first training my knees hurt so i ended 4 min/sets early. Before i had time to return i felt my knees in a bad way so i am done for today. I like training so i have no problem listening to be able to keep on training. Maybe you built up your volume or weight too fast. Mistakes are OK when we learn.

I was used to training 6 days weekly, and i am trying to add volume real slow. Maybe 6 days was new to you. On less volume than suggested i lost 1 pound and definitely trimmed. You will find your volume and weights. I went slowly and my weights went up when they did, i did not up them to feel good. I had never done anything close to that so i had to completely switch my frame of mind.

The only other thing i just tought of is tempo. If you do slow excentrics(when the muscles get longer) you might need more time to recover. How much time is your average set lasting ?