Well, seems I’ve got myself into a bit of a pickle.
It was my belief that hCG maintained some degree of sperm production while on standard TRT. This is not the case, at least not always.
I had started TRT with a count of 10 million or so, an already low count. For 18 months or so, I took 100mg per week of test e in divided doses (2) along with 3x300IU of hCG.
In April of this year, I had enough to do an IVF cycle with my wife. Today, zero found.
So…I’m opening up the table for advice - who has some?
Stop all TRT and hope that my system kicks in?
Stop test, stay on hCG, and see what happens there?
What is a SERM, and how might that be an option?
Feeling sort of desperate here.
Thanks guys.
Some people have luck with this:
If that doesn’t work, you could go off TRT for a while (taking a SERM as sort of a PCT) until your wife gets preggers…depending on how bad you want kids
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Some people have luck with this:
If that doesn’t work, you could go off TRT for a while (taking a SERM as sort of a PCT) until your wife gets preggers…depending on how bad you want kids[/quote]
Thanks VT. Yeah, I’m aware of HMG, but it’s incredibly expensive, to the tune of thousands of dollars a month.
Question - I’ve never been on TRT without the use of hCG. Would that (and how, if so) make it easier to come OFF TRT?
don’t doctors prescribe clomid to kick start sperm production?
there is also another drug (at very low doses) tamoxifen which can release massive amounts of LH/FSH.
[quote]NeelyDan wrote:
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Some people have luck with this:
If that doesn’t work, you could go off TRT for a while (taking a SERM as sort of a PCT) until your wife gets preggers…depending on how bad you want kids[/quote]
Thanks VT. Yeah, I’m aware of HMG, but it’s incredibly expensive, to the tune of thousands of dollars a month.
Question - I’ve never been on TRT without the use of hCG. Would that (and how, if so) make it easier to come OFF TRT?
[/quote]
Are you asking how hcg makes it easier to come off TRT?
Basically, the hcg has been keeping your nuts alive while you are on TRT…when considering the HPTA (Hypothalmus[largely irrelvant from TRT perspective]-Pituitary-Testicular Axis), HCG keeps the ‘T’ part of that equation alive, and only your ‘P’ gets shut down and doesn’t release gonadotropins…
When on TRT with no HCG, both ‘T’ and ‘P’ get suppressed…
So if you come off after taking HCG, you only have one part of the equation to turn back on…without hcg, you have two…
This next thought is not relevant to your case, per se, but it makes me wonder if taking a SERM along with HCG while on TRT would maybe keep the entire HPTA alive indefinitely? hrmmm…
[quote]PureChance wrote:
don’t doctors prescribe clomid to kick start sperm production?
there is also another drug (at very low doses) tamoxifen which can release massive amounts of LH/FSH.[/quote]
Both of the compounds you mention are SERM’s…they mostly do the exact same thing, with some slightly different mechanisms of action with some being more potent (but more side effects) than others…
Neely: if you can’t go the HMG route, you may want to consider stopping TRT for 2 weeks entirely (to let the esters clear) and beginning a SERM only protocol (just like PCT for AAS users) of Clomid or Nolva…they use one or the other (or both) daily at higher doses for 2 weeks, followed by lower doses for 2 weeks…hopefully sometime in that timeframe, you and your wife can get preggers and you can resume TRT…
the SERMs will have the added benefit of helping you restore SOME natural testosterone output (whatever your boys are actually capable of producing) so you hopefully won’t feel completely miserable during that time…
[quote]PureChance wrote:
don’t doctors prescribe clomid to kick start sperm production?
there is also another drug (at very low doses) tamoxifen which can release massive amounts of LH/FSH.[/quote]
Thanks guys. Yeah, my guy mentioned both those meds actually, as next steps if his first protocol doesn’t yield results - which is ceasing all exogenous test, remaining on hCG and keeping E low with some AI. I don’t quite understand his angle here, because I thought hCG would suppress FSH the same way exo test does, resulting in no sperm - but I guess we’ll see.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[quote]NeelyDan wrote:
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Some people have luck with this:
If that doesn’t work, you could go off TRT for a while (taking a SERM as sort of a PCT) until your wife gets preggers…depending on how bad you want kids[/quote]
Thanks VT. Yeah, I’m aware of HMG, but it’s incredibly expensive, to the tune of thousands of dollars a month.
Question - I’ve never been on TRT without the use of hCG. Would that (and how, if so) make it easier to come OFF TRT?
[/quote]
Are you asking how hcg makes it easier to come off TRT?
Basically, the hcg has been keeping your nuts alive while you are on TRT…when considering the HPTA (Hypothalmus[largely irrelvant from TRT perspective]-Pituitary-Testicular Axis), HCG keeps the ‘T’ part of that equation alive, and only your ‘P’ gets shut down and doesn’t release gonadotropins…
When on TRT with no HCG, both ‘T’ and ‘P’ get suppressed…
So if you come off after taking HCG, you only have one part of the equation to turn back on…without hcg, you have two…
This next thought is not relevant to your case, per se, but it makes me wonder if taking a SERM along with HCG while on TRT would maybe keep the entire HPTA alive indefinitely? hrmmm…
[/quote]
That’s exactly what I was asking, yes. Thank you.
This is my guy - in this study here, he is saying letrozole works similarly to clomid - so maybe that’s what he’s thinking. The study is based on females, but if the mechanisms are similar maybe it applies.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYD/is_24_35/ai_68740980/
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
This next thought is not relevant to your case, per se, but it makes me wonder if taking a SERM along with HCG while on TRT would maybe keep the entire HPTA alive indefinitely? hrmmm…
[/quote]
I read about some rather frightening sides with long term serm use…vision issues particularly. Appreciate that you’re more interested in the logic behind the theory, though.
9 days off testosterone injections, 400iu hCG 3x per week with 0.25mg adex 2x per week is the new protocol. So last Wednesday was my last T shot.
I am already feeling the effects. This will not be fun, will it?
On an upside, I know of another patient with the same doc as me who’s sperm production came back under the same protocol just recently.
but man do i feel like shit.
yep, I went off T injections and tried solo HCG for a bit… serious crash and just barely kept my job… brain fog is a dangerous thing - tread carefully.
What were your experiences in terms of timelines?
You probably arent interested, but HMG can be had for far less than thousands of dollars if you choose to buy it from one of the various online pharmacies.
this is a fairly common approach amongst longtime AAS users (10+ years straight) with allegedly very good results.
75 iu HMG 3x weekly
500iu HCG 3 x weekly
alternating days
overall degradation over two weeks and then just sat there at the bottom for a month or so trying minor variations, then going back on creams for a month (just to confirm if they would work or not) with no change whatsoever before finally going back on injections. since then much better… but I had a vasectomy so sperm count is really not a concern of mine.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You probably arent interested, but HMG can be had for far less than thousands of dollars if you choose to buy it from one of the various online pharmacies.
this is a fairly common approach amongst longtime AAS users (10+ years straight) with allegedly very good results.
75 iu HMG 3x weekly
500iu HCG 3 x weekly
alternating days[/quote]
I’ve read dosing strategies that are right in line with what you’re suggesting here. I’ve also had serious thoughts about going that route - my concerns are the obvious ones, ie the integrity of the pharmacy and its products. How does one weed out the bad and find the good?
I appreciate the input a great deal, thanks.
[quote]NeelyDan wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You probably arent interested, but HMG can be had for far less than thousands of dollars if you choose to buy it from one of the various online pharmacies.
this is a fairly common approach amongst longtime AAS users (10+ years straight) with allegedly very good results.
75 iu HMG 3x weekly
500iu HCG 3 x weekly
alternating days[/quote]
I’ve read dosing strategies that are right in line with what you’re suggesting here. I’ve also had serious thoughts about going that route - my concerns are the obvious ones, ie the integrity of the pharmacy and its products. How does one weed out the bad and find the good?
I appreciate the input a great deal, thanks.
[/quote]
Yeah that is an extremely valid concern.
I cant say I have any fool proof advice. The crowd I run with tends to favor the ‘test it out and see what happens’ approach, for other things, not fertility drugs.
I dont know enough about the fertility drug market to know how often these drugs are faked. If I did Id have better advice about red flags to look for in an online pharmacy. Usually tpying in the name of the pharmacy or website with ‘reviews’ is a good start. Though, again, not sure how effective that is for the fertility drug market.
There are few other forums where long time, heavy dose aas users, gather. I know that there are a few threads about this exact topic only the guys have been using bodybuilding doses of testosterone for 10 plus years. They talk about using hmg but not where they got it from. It’s worth a shot to seek that information out directly.
well…5 months off…i can’t even begin to tell you the kinds of things my body has experienced.
lh/fsh have been restored since about the 6 week off mark. will be doing semen analysis soon. pray for me, lol.
Let me know your outcome on the semen count. We are going to try and get pregnant and I’m facing the same issues. Good luck and I’ll say a prayer.
BACK IN BUSINESS!
My semen analysis from this past Friday, the 8th, revealed 1.8 million sperm per mL. Miserable count, for sure, but considering in December it was 0, and i’ve only been off TRT for just over 3 months (off test since Dec, off hCG since end of Feb), that means in another 3 months my numbers will be much higher - BUT, the important thing is I AM PRODUCING AGAIN.
To recap, for those interested in similar things:
2 years of TRT (100mg test/various amounts of anastrozole/300ui hCG 3x week) took my sperm count to 0 (it took the full two years to reduce it to zero, basically kept nose diving over the course of two years)
Producing sperm again after 3.5 months cessation of all TRT.
I feel like shit, for the record, and at the same time entirely happy! lol