T Nation

Self-Medicating in a Country with Hopeless Doctors

Hi from Thailand,

First thanks to all members of this forum for some excellent posts and general advice, I have read almost everything and I think now I have a reasonable grasp of the whole TRT thing.

I am now 38 years old weigh approx 220, 6’2", more fat around the midriff than I would like, train 3 times a week.

I had a virtual loss of libido around 3 years ago, went to the doctor who tested me, and "everything OK, but testosterone low (around 320 if I remember). He suggested a shot of testoviron every 3 weeks (!). He said if I felt better to come back for another shot, but if not don’t bother.

Obviously after one shot the earth didn’t move much, so I didn’t bother going back, just thought the lethargy and general disinterest in life was down to my circumstances, but deep down I knew something was wrong.

I did some more research and discovered Andriol testocaps, an oral supplement that I don’t see mentioned here much (most members seem to be stateside, maybe they’re not available there ?),

After taking these for a few months there was an improvement, especially in libido, but erections still not so strong and sometimes difficult to orgasm, no nighttime/morning wood.

I found some other stuff on the web about IM test injections being the best, so before starting went to another doctor who said no need to worry, getting older, but can inject once a month, also the doctor had never heard of arimidex.

Then came across this amazing site - so much great info from some experts (KSman et al.).

Before I started thinking about injecting (once a week)the first thing I did was go to a lab (everything is primitive where I live) - I was only able to get test and E2 levels which were as follows

Test 274

E2 40.9

That was all I could get without 24 hours on a bus and very expensive blood tests (have to be air freighted to Singapore for free test etc. and I simply cannot afford that.

Upon getting these results I started injecting 100mg of test cyp a week (this was 5 weeks ago).
What a difference, libido returned, erections all night, sex 3 times a day and a great outlook. I noticed things tapered off a bit over the last week, feeling bloated and libido down again.

The other problem is lack of arimidex here - only available to breast cancer patients and distributed under special supervision. Crazy as you can buy almost anything else AAS related over the counter.

I found a pharmacy that could order arimidex, very expensive ($250 for 28 tabs), but I got an email saying that it has arrived and I can collect it today.

Yesterday I went and took another blood sample for test and E2, these were the results

test 379

E2 85.01

So the E2 is off the chart now,

So advice please, in a couple of hours I will collect my adex, I was thinking quarter of a tab E3D for a couple of weeks then get another blood test. I would like test at 800 and E2 at 25, or as near to those as I can get. Does this sound OK - also as the Adex kicks in I presume less test will convert to E, therefore keep the shots at 100mg a week for now ?

I am really desperate for advice here, thanks for taking the time to read.

I assume you are injecting only 1x per week? If so, how long after your last pin did you get your blood drawn? 379 is much lower than what I would have expected if soon after last pin. I would question the legitimacy of your Test Cyp, but it looks like you enjoyed a strong initial response so that’s probably good…you should be injecting 2-3x per week for most stable values, which will also help E2 conversion…

Your good initial response didn’t last because your E2 shot sky high (as you know)…Arimidex should get you back in line…are your pills 1 mg each? I think the general recommendation is 1 mg Adex for every 100 mg of test each week, so you should take 1 mg Adex per week…pills are tricky but I would probably just take half a pill twice a week…

Actually I take that back…your pills are fucking expensive…you should look online for “research anastrozole” and just medicate with that…probably no issues getting it into Thailand…it will be much cheaper ($60 should last you a year)…

Get a pill spliter and split into 1/4. E3d is a good start and it should be safe to test after 4 wks. Its better to start low and increase dose or frequency if needed. I just came off of. .25mg e3d because even it knocked me to low and I felt like shit. You would feel more leveled out by injecting 2-3 x/day e3d works really good for steady levels.


Thanks for the replies…My last jab was last Thursday evening and I got blood test on Monday morning.

I just picked up the expensive original Arimidex and a pill cutter, the best I could do was cut into 3 pieces on the first attempt as the tablets are so small.

I will stick with .03 Adex E3D and jab 100mg of cyp e/w for a month, and get tested after that.

I’d also like to ask…should I try to coincide the arimidex on the day of the test jab or does it make no difference ?

If the adex does its job does it sound like 100mg e/w will be enough ?

Thanks again

my advice would be to try injecting 50mg E3D, but you may need 30mg EOD.

Weekly shots do the same thing as monthly shots - overdose you at the start and then underdose you towards the end of the week. only getting up to 379 Total Test four days after your shot seems to indicate that you clear test out of your system faster than normal (like me).

there is a generic arimidex available at least in the US. it might be cheaper if available for you.

I take .25mg EOD arimidex or you can do .5mg E3D. I take mine the day of the shot. If you go to E3D or EOD then you don’t have to worry about what day you dose. If you are one weekly shot you would need more arimidex at the first and then less later in the week. But it is very hard to dose weekly shots correctly. You just have experiment.

The solution to the problem is why is e2 high
Are you eating alot of soy based product since being in a foregin country? milk, soy beans, cooking in soy oil?
Being 38 you need to look into TRT I agree 100% no sense of denying your self of that

Like many others have said adjusting TRT that works best for you is the optimal answer, but I will also note that getting many patients T up to optimal levels actually cause there e2 to go back into balance. I have seen this in many patients.

You need to ride out 4-5 weeks when starting TRT with out AI because you may be increasing your T which is reawakening your e2 receptors making you seem like having high e2 symptoms and e2 is normal. One also needs to look at diet and also proper nutrients that enable your body to detoxify e2 and its metabolites properly from start to finish. I beleive the issue lies in potential dietary or your high body fat increasing aromatase activity.


Thanks for all the advice, everything makes sense.

As of today I will switch to 50mg E3D, and .25 adex EOD and check blood again in 4 weeks.

The other thing I noticed that is a bit odd is the normal range for E2 :-

Estradiol (Estrogen), serum, 85.02 pmol/L male : normal range 19.7- 242

That “normal range” looks higher than anything I’ve seen anywhere else ??

Oh, and you are spot on about soy oil - I just asked my wife and she only uses soy in cooking. Would it be better to switch to palm ? Sunflower is 3 times the cost of soy here. I do need to get some weight off thats for sure,


Divide E2 pmol/L by 3.7 to get E2 pg/ml which is the measure you see mostly used on this site.

Well my friend you have found your answer which no one medical professional would have even ever thought of to ask. Some times the most complex solution have the simpliest answer. Stop all soy and use macademian nut, Extra virgin cocconut oil, butter organic.

Hi KSMan,

So when I see mention of “optimum” E2 levels around 25, is this pg/ml ?

If that is the case, my 85.02 pmol/L reading is actually 23 pg/ml which is in the optimum range and I don’t need an AI ?

Very confused now, but thanks for bringing that to my attention !

[quote]thegman70 wrote:
Hi KSMan,

So when I see mention of “optimum” E2 levels around 25, is this pg/ml ?

If that is the case, my 85.02 pmol/L reading is actually 23 pg/ml which is in the optimum range and I don’t need an AI ?

Very confused now, but thanks for bringing that to my attention !


This is why it’s important to give your lab numbers with appropriate units and lab ranges…some people get offended and lash out about people being too “anal” or “militant” when this simple request is made, but without them people can easily be given incorrect advice (such is the case here).

Yes, I agree completely.

This puts a whole new slant on things.

On my first blood test (before starting TRT) my results were as follows :

Testosterone (ng/dL) 274 (normal range 241-827)

Estradiol (Estrogen), serum 40.92 pmol/L (normal range 19.7 - 242)

Which now looks too low.

My blood test earlier this week (after 4 weeks of TRT - 100mg of cyp a week)

Testosterone (ng/dL) 379 (normal range 241-827)

Estradiol (Estrogen), serum 85.02 pmol/L (normal range 19.7 - 242)

So now my test is elevated from 274 to 379, and it seems that I previously had low E2 (40.92/3.7 = 11.05 pg/ml, but after the test cyp, my E2 has moved up into optimum range (85.02/3.7 = 22.97).

So my initial horror at high E2 was completely unfounded (after I spent $250 on adex yesterday !).

So any advice - I’m thinking move to 50ml cyp E3D in an attempt to drive the test level up without increasing the dose, and for now no AI, and do blood tests again in a month.

Thanks again to KSMan for pointing out this huge oversight on my part.

I’m surprised no one else here has commented on your 3 x a day sex habit. I’m surprised you even have a penis after that. No matter how much of anything you inject into your body - your body will never allow you to have sex that many times and retain any normal hormone levels. You are an idiot.

[quote]cjackson25 wrote:
I’m surprised no one else here has commented on your 3 x a day sex habit. I’m surprised you even have a penis after that. No matter how much of anything you inject into your body - your body will never allow you to have sex that many times and retain any normal hormone levels. You are an idiot.[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words.

What do you recommend, once a month with the lights off, depending on the wind ?


Once a week otherwise your testicles are producing sperm and not testosterone all the time.

Are you a troll or just completely stupid ?

Smarter than you apparently since I know not to have sex three times a day.

Ok let me spell it out for you as it is obviously too difficult a concept to grasp by yourself.

People go on TRT because their testes have ceased to produce testosterone naturally at a “normal” level.

Once on TRT, any remaining function of the testes will be shut down unless on HCG wjich I am not.

That means, in plain English (or American I suspect in your case), that my testes do not produce testosterone any of the time, whether I am having sex ten times an hour or once a decade. All of the testosterone in my body is from the injections.

Is that clear enough for you ?

Or perhaps you are jealous because you’d like to do it 3 times a day, or perhaps your wife would like it but you can’t deliver ? Not much fun playing pool with a piece of rope eh ?

Anyway I will not waste any more time responding to your inane, uneducated trolling posts. I don’t know what your purpose is in coming to this forum, I don’t see your contribution in any way beneficial to anybody (including yourself).

Over and out.

You are obviously still having problems with low testosterone. Obviously your injections aren’t helping. You seem to think you are so smart that you have overlooked the fact that excessive sex not only affects the testicles but affects the brain and elicits a panic response from the gut. Nervous system potential is discharged from the body during sex. I don’t care how much life force you put inside yourself.

If you are constantly stressing your body it will break. If this concept is too simple for you to understand, go ahead and keep breaking your body and posting on forums asking what the problem is. I’m not here to berate you, but don’t you think something might be wrong with the entire philosophy of injecting more testosterone when the numbers just get lower? You are obviously not alone in this problem as it is very common on this board.

The ignorance comes from the fact that the endocrine system as a whole and the liver have a hormone threshhold that if surprassed will trigger negative feedback in multiple glands that will make any added testosterone useless that the body cannot handle. No matter how much you think artificially adding a large amount of one hormone will allow you to screw all day, it is not true because there is a lot more to libido and body function than 1 hormone - and your neurotransmitter levels will be all screwed up acting like a feral animal all the time as more than just testosterone is burned during sex.

If you think you are too smart to understand this advice, I don’t really care, but it is common sense. There are many reasons most TRT users never feel 100%, and I am just pointing out to you a very obvious principle that you have overlooked. If you take offense to that, keep screwing until your wife asks why you can’t get it up anymore, if that is not already the case.

Lab tests need to be timed properly. If testing at day 7 of once a week injections, the results are quite useless.

That been said, a rare few do need 300mg/week to achieve what most get from 100mg/week.

There is nothing wrong with a high libido. The initial response is often transient, enjoy it while you can.